Questions on limitations and kills of the P-61

[warbird1]

Jack's awesome photos of the P-61 got me to thinking about the Black Widow. I know it was a fighter, but really it was primarily a night one. In light of that, it would seem to have no need to do any aerobatics or fighter type manuevers. From what I've read, it seems like most of the kills of the P-61 were accomplished at night time and from a fairly level attack position.

Some questions:

1) Was the P-61 fully aerobatic?

2) What was the G limitation of the airplane?

3) Did it ever achieve any air-to-air kills during daytime? If so, were any of them fighters?

4) Were there any cases of the P-61 getting into a "furball" of a high-G, turning dogfight with any enemy fighters?

[n5151ts]

that thing...aw jeez

[Django]

I believe there was one in the ETO that shot down 2 FW-190s in daylight. I don't remember the exact quote, but they were quite shocked to actually see the devastation of the 20mm hits on the aircraft.

IIRC, when the squadrons first got the P-61s, they were super cautious and flew them like a truck. One of the test pilots was touring a plane and giving demonstrations and generally scaring the crap out of the crews with what the plane could actually do... and I don't think anyone had anything bad to say about a P-61 after that.

I'll have to look in my book to see if they list any specs.

One of the greatest limitations of their operational use was spare parts. There was one squadron that had only a handful of planes operational because they couldn't get parts. All the daytime planes were deemed a higher need than any of the NFS.

Imagine what they could have accomplished with greater support and if they had become operational in May '44 when they arrived (I think) in the ETO vs their first combat flights in late June/early July '44.

I think the aircraft was capable of some of the highest kill ratios of the war, but the operational use and conditions/weather really hindered the potential.

[Malo83]

Didn't the top turret give them a lot of problems with buffeting the tail at high speed which added to the limitations of the bird. a lot of pics show them without the top turret.

[CAPFlyer]

The aircraft without the top turret was more due to lack of turrets than any buffeting problems. The P-61 used the same turret as the B-29 and as a result of the B-29 having a higher priority, the P-61 suffered problems several times during production and many planes were built without the turrets. However, some were retrofitted with turrets as they became available for installation during depot-level maintenance. Most pilots loved having the turret even with its buffeting problems because the extra power of the 4 .50's and the ability to use them for ventral attacks (i.e. attacks from below) was a major plus.

[n5151ts]

Didn't the top turret give them a lot of problems with buffeting the tail at high speed which added to the limitations of the bird. a lot of pics show them without the top turret.

the A model had buffet problems...the B model had no turret...the C model solved the buffet problems

[Jack Cook]

Ichatted with a fellow from the 419th NFS a while back.
He said without the turret the a/c was very maneuverable.
Especially with the wing spoilers. One thing he didn't like was the
prop spinning right next to him. He said a belly landing or a gear failure would have sent chucks of prop blades through the cockpit

[Swiss Mustangs]

3) Did it ever achieve any air-to-air kills during daytime? If so, were any of them fighters?

as per Olynik's Victory List [ETO]:

21st October 1944, 1825 h; 1 FW-190; 2/Lt. William G. Adams, Jr. [radar operator]; 1/Lt. Theodore I. Jones [pilot]; 1/Lt. Philip M. Guba [observer]- P-61A 42-5564, 422nd NFS; location F-2865 N of Aachen, Germany

24th October 1944; 1818 h; 1 FW-190; Lt. Col. Oris B. Johnson [pilot]; Capt. James A. Montgomery [radar operator]- P-61A 42-5558, 422nd NFS; location K-8151 near Aachen, Germany

Martin

[Jack Cook]

24th October 1944; 1818 h; 1 FW-190; Lt. Col. Oris B. Johnson [pilot];

L/C O.B. Johnson CO 422nd NFS 1944

[The Inspector]

I recall an article from years ago (WINGS or AIRPOWER?)about the WIDOW and how the factory demo pilots would haul the throttle back on one engine and snap the yoke over and kick bottom rudder to demonstrate that A) you could turn hard into a dead engine and live, and B)the thing would about swap ends inside the paint, 'hows them eggs and bacon stayin' with ya sonny?'