Warbird Information Exchange

Anyone ever seen it?

Verrieee interesting.....Wonder how much he has done towards the P-66 specific extrusions for the aft fuselage and wings. There are about 20 of these and none can be created out of stock extrusions.

Everything he's got other than the retract stuff and a couple of other items are stock available parts.

Definately got my curiosity up......

As to finding any wreckage or salvage, odds are pretty long on that. I believe that all of the ones that remained stateside were scrapped firght after the war. There is a possiblity of finding something at the base in Pakistan where they were reassembled for training and deliver to the Chineese, but it too would be a very long shot.

Very interesting!

It doesn't say where in Caldwell, though. I spent my days off for the month of June 2007 at the Caldwell airport, cleaning and packing the stash of PT-19 parts that I bought there. Other than the Stearmans under restoration, no other warbird was seen nor mentioned.

If you guys find where it is, please post it, so that I can attempt a visit on my next trip to ID.

Saludos,


Tulio

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Will the previous owner has pics of this double cabin sample

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Sooooo, how am I going to know to press 1 or 2, if I do not speak English????

I wonder how much (if any) of a BT-13 airframe could be adapted to the project. If it's a replica, it seems like just getting a plane that "looks" right would be close enough (and of course is structurally sound enough to fly safely.)

Sounds like an intriguing project. I've always thought the Vanguard was an attractive aircraft. Maybe the guy should contact the Chinese. I read a history of the P-66 that claimed that some of the planes given to China were appropriated by local warlords, who had them buried..in hopes of having their own private air forces after the Japanese left. Maybe some are still waiting to be dug up...


SN

Louis Pratt, from my recollection, has forgotten more about P-66s than most experts know. He's been working on this P-66 project for decades and has pursued tips and leads all over the world for bits and pieces of the airplane. He used to be based in Northern California near Sacramento but I guess he is in Caldwell now. Interesting guy.

Steve: Outside of the usual vendor items that were common to multiple aircraft, such as engines, props, throttle quadrants, rudder pedals and the like, I don't think that there is anything structure wise that is common between the BT series and the P-66. There will be some extrusions that are, but there are more that are -66 specific. I haven't checked too closely, but the majority of the other stuff that I've looked at wasn't the same. Remember, the -66 was approaching 200 mph faster than the BT's, so the structural loads will be significantly different.

My interest has really been piqued as to what he has accumulated and fabricated so far. The steel tubing section and it's related componets should be pretty easy to fabricate as they are standard size tubing and sheet. It'll be the same with everything forward of the firewall. If one has, or can develope the skills for doing a rag and tube homebuilt, it would be pretty easy to build. The only hangup is obtaining the oddball extrusions. That can be done, but unless a couple of people band together, the cost can be pretty dramatic. The dies are not that expensive to have fabricated, it's the setup charges that are killers. I was just emailing one of the Desert Rat guys about this particular subject over the weekend.

When Louie was at Elk Grove, CA I use to stop by his hangar and chat. He had not heard of a P-66 at that time and I gave him all the info I had. That would have been about 1985 or 6. The guy that use to run the Vultee assoc. said he had the remains of two P-66s in ND, but he died before I could find out where they were. The P-66 and the BT-13 were built on the same jigs. Vultee designed four plane using the same basic jig. The weak point was the fuselage joint behind the cockpit in a ground loop.

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Actually they only shared the same jigs for the prototypes according to a couple of reference sources that I've seen. The BT-13 came about a couple of years after the P-66 was already in production, by making significant revisions to the B-54 series. Once the Model 48X went into production, there had been enough revisions that few parts would interchange between the B-54, BC-51, B-54D and the 48 anymore. There were significant changes in the 48's aft fuselage that cumulated in enlargement of the entire tail section and all it's surfaces.

About the only place that you might still find commonality between the BT and the -66 would be non-structural items. I've got a full set of prints and access to a BT that is disassembled, so the next time I'm out there, I'll compare some of the easy to get to items.

If you have something that shows more interchangability, I'd be really curious to see it as it might make a project easier.

That's interesting - I always thought that quite abit of BT-13 and P-66 stuff was interchangeable. That's the argument I always understood for being why the Valiant has such a lousy airfoil for a trainer.

Here is an excerpt from the March 1985 (Vol. 15 No. 2) issue of AIRPOWER magazine in an article written by R.E. Martin and appearing on pages 10 thru 21, and 54. The excerpt below is from page 54.

A February 1942 photo of the P-66 42-6938 appears on page 14.

Interesting....it's also the first item I've ever seen in nearly 20 years of chasing P-66 stuff, in print. Unfortunately, I will have to remain highly skeptical of the exsistance of the two airframes. This would make either the 5th or 6th version of this story I've heard, but the first with possible serial numbers. No one that I've had contact with has ever been able to provide any photos of the airframes or name an individual that had actually seen them. One of my contacts had even discussed rumors of two airframes with Sam and he had never seen any proof that they exsisted in the States. Until some kind of positive proof shows up, you've got to consider it just a published rumor. Besides, with the way the warbird grapevine is, if they really did exsist and were in the States, someone would have leaked the proof by now.

Any updates on reproduction/new build P-66's?

Have heard some rumbles but have not seen anything definite at this time. I'll have to try my sources this weekend to see if there is any hard information out there.

Any word on the P-66 replicas?

This may be a stupid question, but is there any reason the unavailable fuselage extrusions can't be machined for a one-off? I've done this for other projects; granted, they were not very complex shapes, but there was nothing conveniently available that was similar.

Hiroyoshi: I've had some word that there is starting to be progress. Maybe by the first of the year, there will be enough done that would be worth pictures. I'll have to ask and if so, get the ok to post them. This is a side project of the person and his ability to make progress is directly tied to the work load with his employer. I would bet that at some point he will go public with the build information. Until there is good visible progress, I wouldn't expect much other than what I information I get from him.

Most of the simple extrusions are available or there are alternates that can be modified. What the biggest problem is the two "T" sections that make up the spars. I don't have my book handy to give you the exact sizes, but they are around 5" wide and 4" tall, with a maximum thickness about 1/4". They have a step in them and edges are heavily rounded.

The only way one could machine these is to convert a 30' capacity planer to very low speed operation and utilize a Bridgeport style head instead of a standard clapper box tool arrangement, as these parts need to be in the 20 foot range as blanks. For those that have never seen a metal planer work, here is a link to a 30' Cincinnati running: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4kPDhrhlgk There would also be a need to control the cut to prevent stress warping of the blank as material is removed on that profile. All in all, it's much less expensive to have the extrusion die made and then pull the profiles. While the ie profile is simple, the size makes it quite large. It's probably in the 2-3K$ range to have each of the dies's made, then the cost to pull and heat treat the extrusion. Very short runs can be expensive... ie tens to hundreds of dollars a foot, but that is way cheaper than tooling up to machine them.