Warbird Information Exchange

So I was looking at the great pictures from the Enola Gay thread and my girlfriend asked what airplanes the Smithsonian had. I couldn't really answer that question since I've never been there, but I did know they ad a lot. I figured that a better question would be as follows:

What airplane types does the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum not have?

And, a second question, more of my interest than hers is what's all stowed away in their storage area that I've heard about?

Cheers,

David McIntosh

You probably can find most of what you want here:

http://www.nasm.si.edu/collections/air_space.cfm

They don't have an AT-10 for one.

As davem suggests, a list of the NASM's aircraft was a quick google away. Although the links he points to only show the displayed aircraft; for the ones socked away at Garber or loaned to other entities, you need to dig a little harder.

As to what they don't have -- well, a tremendous amount of stuff, obviously. Especially non-US stuff. You can go to the national museums of many nations, including Canada, the UK, France, Belgium, Holland, Australia, and Italy, to name a few, and see huge collections of types of which the NASM has almost none. They focus on American types, as they should.

The most significant US type that the NASM doesn't have probably is the B-24.

Their collection of US types from the 1920s and 1930s, both civil and military, is pretty thin. They are also weak on modern general aviation aircraft, ultralights, homebuilts, and rotorcraft.

In 1989, the NASM formulated a list of aircraft it lacked and of which it planned to acquire 80 over the next 30 years. Here is the list. It gives you a good idea of what NASM thinks it needs, or did 20 years ago anyway. They have acquired quite a few of these items, but still have some work to do!

Polikarpov Po-2
Douglas DC-4
De Havilland DHC-2 Beaver or DHC-3 Otter
Vickers Viscount
Embraer Bandeirante
De Havilland DHC-6 Twin Otter
Boeing 707
Boeing 727
Sud/Sud-Est/Aerospatiale SE 210 Caravelle
Tupolev Tu-104
Boeing 747
Any World War I British aircraft (e.g., Sopwith 1 1/2 Strutter)
Any World War I Italian aircraft (e.g., Ansaldo S.V.A. 9)
Any Interwar (1919-1939) British aircraft, e.g., De HavillandD.H. 82 Tiger Moth
Morane Saulnier 127
Consolidated B-24 Liberator
Douglas A-20 Havoc
Avro Lancaster
Gloster Meteor
Any German bomber (e.g., Junkers Ju 87)
Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik
Boeing B-52 Stratofortress
Convair F-102 Delta Dagger
Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird
Dassault Mirage III
Mikoyan-Burevich MiG-21 Fishbed
Grumman F-14 Tomcat
Alexander Eaglerock A-2, American Eagle A-1 or Brunner-WinkleBird
Travel Air 4000, Laird Speedwing, Commercial or Stearman C3B
Fleet 2 or Great Lakes 2-T-1A1
Piper Malibu
Beech Baron 55
Piper Aztec
Beech King Air
Rockwell Commander
Cessna Citation I
Stinson SB-1
Bellanca Aircruiser
Piper Pawnee or Schweitzer Grumman AG Cat
Ayres Turbo Thrush S2R-T65/400
Champion Citabria or Decathalon
Christen Eagle
Mudry CAP 10B
Akaflieg Stuttgart FS-24 Phonix
ASW 12
ASW 22B
Bekas N
Caproni A-21S
D.F.S. Olympia
D.F.S. Wiehe
Eipper-Formance Quicksilver
Glaser-Dirks DG-400
Glasflugel H-301 Libelle
Hall Cherokee II
Hoffman H-36 Dimona MK II
Letnany L-13 Blatnik
Nimbus 3/24.5
Slingsby T.21B
Woodstock One
Aerocar Micro-Imp
Aerolites Ag-Bearcat
Circa Reproductions Sopwith Triplane
Freedom Master Air Shark I
Glasair III
Hamilton HX-321
Holcomb Perigee
Lancair 200/235
Ligeti Stratos
Monnett MoniParaplane
Pietenpol Air Camper
Polen Special
Questair Venture
SA-60 Silhouette I
Sadler A22
Seawind International Seawind 2000
SNS-9 EXP II Hiperlite
Starlite SL-1
Van's RV-3
Volmer Sportsman
Wheeler Express
Bell AH-1G Cobra
Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey
Boeing-Vertol CH-47 Chinook
Gyrodyne XRON
McDonnell Douglas AH-64A Apache
McDonnell Douglas Notar
Mil Mi-12
Mil Mi-24 Hind
Sikorsky H-3
Sikorsky HH-52
Farrington Air and Space-18A
Williams Research X-Jet


August

I see a real shame in that list- Steve Roberts(Newark, Del) sold his DeHavilland Beaver-which is one of the aircraft on their list- back in the mid 1990s. N2297N was a fully UNrestored example of a military DHC-2, and was still carrying the original military radios, litter racks, exploding door hinge bolts, top windows and "ARMY" Viet Nam era paint job. It was truly a high quality restorable museum piece- and it flew nicely, as well.. It was bought by Bel Helicopter in Colorado, and totally restored- TO CIVILIAN! ARRGGGHHHH!!!! I am glad she is still flying, but look what they did to her!
http://www.greeleynet.com/~wordwork/airpage.htm

Took all her unique military personality away, and turned her into just another civilianized Beaver...

Had NASM been the buyer, they would have had one of the nicest original examples in existence. That plane is gone forever all that is left is just another pretty airplane...



Robbie

NASM could not have been the buyer, as they do not purchase aircraft additions. There have been almost no exceptions to this rule.

Kevin

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Kevin McCartney

I though that the SR-71 was in their collection? Didn't its last flight wind up with it in DC for eventual display at Udavar Hazy?

You're forgetting the still airworthy, triple secret SR-71 that Mustangdriver saw in a hangar.
Gotta go, hear a black helicopter outside.

Steve G

Remember the above list was prepared in 1989. Several of the aircraft on it have since been acquired.

August

The SR-71 has a nice display- center stage Udvar-Hazy, in front of Enterprise, between WWII and VN aircraft. Has a nice collection of equipment, also.

Robbie

Hello all,

As August says, this is an old list (I also have a copy) but as far as I know is the most recent detailed summary of possible future accessions. Since that time, the following aircraft on that list have been added to the collection (the addition may not be the same model number as was originally desired):

Boeing 727 (if memory serves, the fourth built, now in storage in Arizona)
Boeing 747 (nose only, in new air transportation display on the Mall)
Ilyushin Shturmovik (still needs painting, presently in Garber)
Lockheed SR-71 (cross-country record holder)
MiG - 21 (on display at UH)
Grumman F-14 (on display at UH)
Beech King Air (now hanging at UH)
Rockwell Commander (Hoover's, on display at UH)
Cessna Citation
Bellanca Aircruiser
Bell Cobra
Bell V-22 (one of the prototypes, not in military markings, at UH)

The Douglas A-20 was in NASM collection briefly before being lost because of disputes with the estate.

NASM briefly had a Vivkers Viscount, at the Baltimore Airport if memory is correct, but NASM gave it up because of inadequate resources to move the aircraft to Garber or UH.

Kevin

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Kevin McCartney

If you'll note, a lot of those foreign aircraft had (or have) significance to US Aviation and US history. Many of the British types were operated by US Airlines or the US Military. Many of the ex-Soviet types were either "guests" of the US, intercepts as bombers (like the Tu-104), and "icon" aircraft (like the Mi-24).

I note as well that several of the types listed have several examples in USAF or USN storage as well as several which sit on "Celebrity Row" at AMARC which could possibly be acquired by NASM at some point in the future.

NASM could not have been the buyer, as they do not purchase aircraft additions. There have been almost no exceptions to this rule.

The most significant US type that the NASM doesn't have probably is the B-24.

I've heard this mentioned as such before, and to me therein lies a major part of the problem with NASM and its acquisitions. Is this part of official policy, and, if so, why? I'm all for the private sector stepping up to the plate and helping out museums and assist collections for posterity (this is NOT a anti-museum rant, by any stretch of the imagination), but at what point does a body such as NASM say "it's a necessary piece for the national collection, so do what it takes to acquire it." Private and corporate donors and benefactors can only go so far, and in my opinion if a museum really wants something bad enough they ought to take the necessary steps to do it.

I've heard for years NASM's lust for a B-24 Liberator, and I have even had the opportunity to speak with at least two different individuals directly employed with NASM who've been on a "Lib hunt." The deal killer has always been something of an obvious - the lack of surviving B-24s from which to pick and choose.

Yet I can sit back and think of several potential candidates they've had opportunity to nab in the last 20-30 year span, and yet they're STILL on the hunt. Examples given... Mr. Tallichet's Indian "J" as purchased by Mr. Weeks. This was a privately owned airframe, and back in the late 1960s when this came to fruition there were several airframes offered to museums which survive today. Bob Collings had the gumption to take on the restoration of "All American/Dragon and His Tail/Witchcraft" and this wonderful airplane was a purchase within the private sector in the 1980s.

Spin the clock back to the 1970s - Spartan trade school Libby in Oklahoma (now in AF inventory, Barksdale.). The AF owned Lib at Lackland, now in the UK - not that long ago... . The former Bolivian meat-hauler, now restored and on AF display - Castle AFB? Yet another.

Critics of my post might try to suggest that at least three of my five B-24s as mentioned above are AF/Wright Patterson property and relations between NASM and Wright Patterson have been less than chummy over the years. And I will concede to that. But then again, the Spartan Lib now at Barksdale and the former Bolivian meat hauler were both deals brokered by and for AF/Wright Patterson. Meaning they were acquired by and for that entity going to the "outside world" - they weren't old gate guards sitting at some backwater AFB waiting for restorations within the AF system.

The last mournful thing I heard from NASM staff about the issue was, "There just aren't any more Libs out there to acquire - complete or partial or substantial enough for restoration. We may never get one."

Yet, the private funding arm for Hill AFB's museum in Utah was able to scratch up some dollars in the last decade, and they now have a Liberator built up from parts scoured all over the globe, albeit from more than a little help from a Privateer in there somewhere...

So, what gives? Without sounding a little guarded at my opinions on NASM - does policy really get in the way of acquisitions? Am I to believe there is no funding arm whatsoever to pursue particular aircraft purchases or restorations? Or is it really just a priority thing?

Hey its real simple.Museums,for the most part,want the aircraft donated and delivered and painted at no cost to them. NASM should have jumped on a Lib when the IAF retired the lot of them. I knew of one museum that thought they could just go out and get somebody to donate a P-40 to them from the private sector. Man did they get a wake up call on that one. The leadership has since changed at said museum and it is significantly better off for it.

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Hang The Expense

Make fun of me as you wish, I saw what I saw.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager