canadian grumman avenger aircraft in lake erie??????????

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:06 am

hello, as a life long northern ohio resident, i have been told by numerous lake erie scuba diving & ship wreck enthusiasts, including a very respectable authority & expert on the subject that there are a few grumman avenger torpedo planes that were sold to the canadian military decades ago resting on the bottom of the canadian side of lake erie. were they dumped their?? did they crash?? is this b.s.?? if true what is condition of said aircraft?? does anybody have navigational coordinates / gps info if they are their & is this is true?? don't worry, i'm not in any position to mount a private salvage operation, not to mention international maritime salvage laws are as tough as nails anyway!! i am an aviation historian / freelance author on the topic, i have 2 published articles in air classics magazine, 1 up coming in warbirds magazine & 1 published in military trader magazine. i just feel this is worth investigating. any info would be appreciated & if true, i would be more than willing to organize a salvage operation with cooperation between both the u.s. & canadian governments. any input is appreciated. regards, tom

Jeffrey · **Joined:** Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:35 pm **Posts:** 253

interesting bit might be were they bought by canada or were lend lease or whatever it is and if they'd be covered by the NHC.

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:50 am

thanks for reply. they were either lend lease from wartime, or bought surplus after ww 2, i think though that surplus after the war is more realistic, however i also can't rule out licensed manufactoring rights bought by the canadian government. it's definetely 1 of the 3 theories!!

AIRIC · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:01 am

I know of at least one known RCN Avenger that crashed into Lake Erie. The Toronto Aerospace Museum have beed searching for it. Don't think they have found any signs of it yet. You may try contacting them for more info.

Eric

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:17 am

I always like pictures with a story:

Cheers
Martin / Swiss Mustangs

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 10:25 am

hello gentleman & thanks for the additional info posts & research leads!! question?? how did you come up with this info ?? do you have the source?? were the aircraft lost with crews?? or were they rescued?? were they training or on patrol?? or were they dumped?? 1 thing is for sure they weren't out torpedoeing perch & walleye!! & there isn't exactly a bermuda triangle out there!! most definetely i would say also is that the canadian navy didn't operate carriers out of the lake for any reason albeit training. next question!! are these lost avengers identified with a squadron?? that could be a huge help in digging into this. can any body determine an aircraft quantity that is down their?? were these planes sunk near the canadian shore?? or in the middle of the canadian side of the lake?? surely they are not on the u.s. side!! they must be in great shape!! well preserved in dark fresh water, & lake erie is pretty silty with mud, & that is a great preservative. look at the amazing warbird planes that have been yanked out of lake michigan!! if anybody can answer any of these questions or think of additional ones in the pursuit of this mystery it is most appreciated!! any scuttlebutt from you canadian scuba divers?? the reason these planes are probably lost is because lake erie is the shallowest of all the great lakes & the lake is more prone to strong currents & violent wave action in inclement weather. if they were dumped, somebody had to dump em & must know where they were deep sixed!! take care, tom

Rob Mears · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:00 pm

Now those pictures are sure a refreshing sight. The TBM looks great in RCN colours!

My guess is that the planes have surely been preserved quite well if they are there. If we're talking about forced water landings then there's an excellent chance that a recovery would be worth the effort IMO. It might be worth an e-mail or a call to Taras Lysennko of A&T Recovery to see if he's ever made a foray over to Lake Erie from his normal Lake Michigan stomping grounds, or if he's ever heard of these planes. I know he's pinpointed a large portion of the Lake Michigan wrecks (if not all of them) over the years and recovered about three dozen of them.

Swiss Mustangs · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:30 pm

So let's refresh you even more, Rob :wink:

Martin / Swiss Mustangs

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 12:32 pm

hello rob, i have given thought about contacting a & t recovery, i have talked to mr lyssenko (how ever it's spelled!!) in depth in the past. his work is in cahoots with the u.s. naval avation museum, & he does fabulous work. i could at least get some imput from him, but as far as him just cruising their in his boat with all his equipment, i don't think that would be to practical, & quite time & cost prohibitive, not to mention he would technically have to cut through tons of canadian red tape for salvaging in foreign waters etc. regards, tom

SRS · **Joined:** Thu Oct 07, 2004 10:13 pm **Posts:** 21

Several years ago I was told a story about a former US Navy pilot who ditched his single engine ride in Lake Erie, most likely in the 1950's. Apparently, his son in later years went and dove on the plane, reporting it to be in excellent shape. I did try to track the pilot down, who retired about 15 years ago, but the Human Services department at the firm would not give out his address. Most likely a search of Navy records using his name would reveal a crash record. I've always assumed he was flying out of Grosse Isle Navy base in that area.

Dan K · **Posted:** Thu Dec 16, 2004 5:03 pm

C'mon fella's! All this work and expense to raise and restore a Turkey? Why not give Mark Clark a call and he'll set you up with a flier for half the price and no nightmares with the feds.

Let sleeping Turkeys lie; much more interesting fish in the sea.

(Kevlar and tin hat on; heading for trench...) :wink:

tom d. friedman · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:26 pm

not interested in raising the planes, to much $$$$$$ & time & red tape!!! i just like a good mystery & want them found!! & as as a nationally published freelance aviation history author i would love to research this for a future article... hence the info i need!!! half the fun in writing articles is the hunt for info. time consuming yes!! but it's better than watching the idiot box tv!! all the best, tom

AIRIC · **Posted:** Fri Dec 17, 2004 9:33 pm

Fred,

E-mail me at info@airic.caa just remove the second a in .ca

Eric

norman malayney · **Joined:** Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:35 am **Posts:** 133

Gentlemen,

I have seven filing cabinets, and in one of them is a newsclip published in 1946 describing a USN Avenger that belly landed in Lake Erie near a freighter, who rescued the crew. I posted this information previously somewhere on this web site. But now will make every effort to locate the newsclipping for the exact date of the accident. Then it should be easy to obtain the accident report from the USN at the Washington Naval Yard. They have the accident reports for 1946 at this facility.

Norman Malayney

Broken-Wrench · **Joined:** Sun Oct 24, 2004 12:37 pm **Posts:** 1197

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

C'mon fella's! All this work and expense to raise and restore a Turkey? Why not give Mark Clark a call and he'll set you up with a flier for half the price and no nightmares with the feds.

That what I would have thought also! It would be alot less problems

Warbird Information Exchange

canadian grumman avenger aircraft in lake erie??????????

Who is online