Warbird Information Exchange

Well the WIX is sure changing, perhaps the economy makes everyone a bit nastier than in the past...

Topics, Intrepid Thread, and then The Jay Leno P-51C thread

First thing this morning was the Intrepid thread where a number of folks thought the cost was to much for the state to bear in helping keep the old ship, and that perhaps the money was better spent elsewhere. Regardless of the outcome of that debate, I'll let that go. By the way, BB-62 has a good home, and neighborhoods have a habit of evolving from high income to low, and back again. Its important to view the BB-62 project as the revitalization of a town, and an investment in the future. Perhaps more of our precious artifacts could be saved if viewed in this light.

The next issue pissing me off is the P-51 and B-24 discussion emanating from the folks here. Now I came in here thinking that regardless of the lack of a mission statement of general guidelines, that most people were concerned with preservation, layperson restoration, pro-restoration and finally warbird industry advocates. The badmouthing and general lack of respect for bith the operator and organizations building supporting and operating two of the most interesting and significant aircraft in this country is astonishing. Putting the man's certificate up to make a "point" is a bit too much.

First, there are several B-24's. There is ONLY ONE FLYING B-24 representative of the aircraft that carried thousands of Americans into battle that flies. There are other aircraft of the B-24/PB4Y type that operate, but these are derivatives of the standard aircraft that took some time to evolve. The CAF has done an amazing job creating Old 927, but truly some licence has been taken when this is described as an "american combat aircraft". This is an LB-30 and was one of several aircraft built to British Specification. This one became a company ship and had an interesting history and made a very big contribution to the war effort. It was restored into configuration in any case. Of the LB-30's the few that survived the war found jobs as executive transports, in fact 2 survive today. The FAA used this first aircraft on the register to "standardize" the rating. Nevertheless somebody thinks its cool to point fingers and pick nits, nice touch.

The best way anyone has ever had to experience a razorback Mustang has to be N251MX. Collings has demonstrated unbelievable commitment and guts in buying and putting the plane out there. This airplane, as is the B-24 and B-17, is THE ambassador now to the general public. Before Jay over 100 folks got to fly the P-51C for the first time that previously would never have had the chance. To have the lot of fence sitters critiquing the efforts in building the thing by pedigreeing the rivets is simply F***ed up. There are no Merlin remaining Razorback Mustangs, and the one that was left in private hands was restored in a way that prevents ever taking anyone along. Whatever. Regardless, this plane is a stunning example of the restorers art. Its also painted as a B, so thats the data block. If you have something nice to say, then feel free to say it.

Oddly the Mustang unauthenticity was ripped on in the thread that said the LB-30 was also a B-24! Now thats not cricket.

Lastly, there is only one Allison worth a dang, and thats the G6R. Rolls Royce made a great engine. If you dont think so find an Allison powered aircraft that beat a Rolls engined one. There were only a few, and they were G6R's. The Merlin is a stunning design, its complicated, but it works. By the way, JP is up Idaho way converting an ALLISON MUSTANG to a MERLIN ONE. By the way, The "Boise Bee" color scheme will become in my mind the most "combat cool" scheme a "B" can have. And I will call that thing a "B" all of my natural born life. As for flying it farther than you can ship.......it took two Allisons to carry one pilot half the way to Berlin. It takes one Merlin. And that plane outlasted the fork tailed bird by a few decades...

Now I realize today Allisons are pretty neat, and as a pilot they run good. But If I had to take one into combat, I would think the P-51B was more beautiful than I do now. And thats a lot.

This is the WIX board.

The tired debate Bf-109 and Me-109, P-51B/C, Ha-1112 Bf-109 or B-whatever. Every warbird operator is doing the best they can with what they have. When The CAF comes in with 927, its your job to come out and support the darn plane to keep it flying. Likewise when Witchcraft shows up, give her the due deserved. She has flown for years in this country in every weather, and has taught several new generations of pilot who would never have gotten a chance what it was like to be a B-24 pilot, and is truly the last of her kind. She is on the road 10 months a year showing a skeptical public that American knowhow was once the standard of the world. No other vintage aircraft is outflying the Collings Planes, nor is any other group.

Thoughts?

Relax, take a deep breathe, read what you want to read and don't read what upsets you. .... it's an open forum on the internet, enough said. ... Take it from me, I had to learn too, take the good with the bad and move on. Turn your computer off and go for a walk. You'll feel better. Not trying to insult you or disrespect you, but come on!! ... it's normal communication on the internet. Nothings changed, maybe just you have changed. How could you possibly get pissed off unless someone is taking a personal jab at you? That I can understand, but not opinions from an array of people who have all the right in the world to express their opinions as long as they be respectful. This is the very core of WIX. What good would WIX be if we all couldn't express our own personal opinions about what ever we see fit to discuss? ... as long as we're respectful ...

You mean this guy
I think he and his dad like Allisons


Actually the P-38s were first to Berlin. Col Jack Jenkins was the first leading his 55th FG flying P-38Js March 1944.
So endeth the lesson..............

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Don't touch my junk!!

For one, I think you're just as guilty as the rest in some respects. You've posted on one hand that you think that the nit-picking should be left to others, but yet earlier in the post you state (definitively) that 927 is not a B-24. Sorry, but the history of the aircraft and the basics of aircraft operations says otherwise.

AM927 began assembly as a B-24A, was modified on the production line to meet the LB-30A specifications, was MODIFIED as a cargo carrier and flew as a company hack and transport and became a testbed and prototype for the C-87, and then passed into private hands after the war. So, because the aircraft was delivered as a Liberator I instead of a B-24A, it's suddenly not a B-24? Or because it was modified into a cargo carrier it's not a B-24? Sorry, but just because I take a KC-135A and modify it into one of several dozen configurations doesn't make it any less of a KC-135.

Yes, I think that the debate is getting a bit to heated and is going over the same territory again and again and is even in some cases getting a bit to political and/or heated, but at the same time, I think that some debate of the points is good. Yes, some may think that whether it's a P-51B or P-51C or a B-24A or LB-30A is something that is semantics, but others think that it's an issue of honesty. I personally see the P-51B/C issue as one of semantics. It's still the only dual-control Razorback Mustang in the world still flying.

I (and many others) see the B-24 issue as one of honesty. The Collings Foundation media department and Rob are not being honest to themselves or the public by claiming to have the only B-24 flying. The designation is the semantics, the reality is the issue. Whether it's an LB-30A or a B-24J, it's still a Liberator and they were built at the same factories by the same people and using the same drawings and modified drawings, so they're still the same aircraft. They're still a Liberator. Am I calling the Collings PR department or Rob Collings a liar? Am I impuning their reputations? Am I belittling their effort? NO!. I am simply stating that in this case, they're words and actions are disingenuous and urging them to rectify the problem. Again, the warbird community is a small one, and it only hurts them in the end if they continue to propogate their party line as when Old '927 starts getting out into the world more and getting more media attention and Collings has to start answering the question - "Why have you claimed all these years to have the only flying B-24 when there's been another flying?".



Sorry, but this is patently false. There are 2. Witchcraft and Old'927. The LB-30A carried thousands of British airmen into battle years before the B-24Js even started rolling off the production lines. The B-24D did the same for American crews.



Again, patently false. The LB-30As (and AM927) rolled off the production lines before the B-24J. In addition, all aircraft that served in WWII (and after) received modifications. Sometimes these modifications resulted in a model change, sometimes they didn't. But the point is that there is no such thing as a "standard" aircraft still in existance today. Witchcraft is not a "Standard" B-24J. Old '927 isn't a "Standard" LB-30A, B-24D, or C-87. They're all modified from their condition as they rolled off the line and as they served in active duty. That doesn't make them any less of the aircraft that they are, which is exactly what you suggest.

Look, loyalties are great to have, you're obviously loyal to the Collings Foundation, but don't let that cloud your ability to see when something isn't right and accept that maybe it needs to be changed.

The Paul Mustang, and I was privledged to meet JCP in Reno. While I have briefly seen the plane up in Nampa, I thought that would be taken with the dry humor intended.

Now Patently False: There is no diminishing suggested anywhere, every preserved aircraft has its place as a survivor, and is representative of all of the uncounted derivatives that do not survive. The most common usage of the type is Daylight Heavy Bomber, and the most numerous versions were of the touring variety.

I believe we need to be loyal to the operators. They are selling to the general public, who really cant tell the dirfference between a B-25 or either B-26.

In any case I felt like stirring it up today...and the Intrepid may be worth the investment...Its like 1/1,900,000th of a Mars Lander...

Interesting coming from you, maybe you should re-read your long-winded post above. It's very simple, if you want to be loyal, then be fair as well, there are TWO B-24's flying today, very, very simple to figure out. And if you had a desire to educate as well, you would be a supporter of TWO B-24's flying today. .... because that indeed is a fact.



Well, then ... invest!!!

The whole idea is to educate and enlighten right
You're saying they're ignorant so who cares

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Don't touch my junk!!

Scott's going to need to hijack Joe's ex firebomber Canso to put this one out.. I can see it comin.

John

My, My, My, My, MY....aren't we an opinionated bunch?

That is exactly why I love this place. Technical, political and passionate. How could it get any better? Whilst there are verbal battles over rivet counting, etc. I get to sit back here and learn more than I ever would on my own. This forum has some of the greatest historians warbirds could ever ask for to perpetuate their history. You guys bring up information I would not even know how to ask questions about.

C'mon Lads, we are all on the same "Warbird Team". We better not all ever get along but we do have to learn mutual respect. Geez, I hate being married to a therapist!

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"There are old pilots and bold pilots but few old, bold pilots."

lol

I thought it was "You can fly a Pratt & Whitney farther than you can ship an Allison..."

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EVERYTHING that CAN fly should be ALLOWED to FLY!
IWO JIMA'S best narative..."GOD ISN'T HERE"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Isnt-Here-Ame ... 0976154706


P: Noise coming from under instrument panel. Sounds like a midget pounding on something with a hammer.

S: Took hammer away from midget.

"you can fly an Allison further than you can ship a Merlin in a box"

_________________
EVERYTHING that CAN fly should be ALLOWED to FLY!
IWO JIMA'S best narative..."GOD ISN'T HERE"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Isnt-Here-Ame ... 0976154706


P: Noise coming from under instrument panel. Sounds like a midget pounding on something with a hammer.

S: Took hammer away from midget.

Rather be pushing our spit than fly in a mustang..

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Those who think it,s impossible should leave the ones doing it alone..
http://www.spitfireprojecta58-27.com/

Ummmm...have ya'll read the latest posts on Lil/Ol 924? Looks like more engine gremlins and she is NOT flying. Technically, Collings DOES have the ONLY B-24 FLYING. I don't think I read anywhere thay they claim to have the only airworthy B-24, so technically, nit-pickingly they have the only flying B-24...for now Once Lil is back in the air and Kermit get's his back in the air, then Gary and Kermit can play chicken with Collings to see just who has the biggest kahonies

Have a nice day...now gimme back my medication

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Earn my respect and never lose it.
Demand my respect and never gain it. -Me

...just another plane dreamer.