Warbird Information Exchange

Can anyone tell me the id of the P-39 that Dave Bertalissio is restoring in Sydney? 41-6951 maybe?

Thanks, Dennis

Hi Dennis,
Check your PMs.

Cheers,
Matt

Hi Matt

Can you send me more details of this one . I have Sn No but I don't know much about him or the aircraft

I just need it for my database and I wouldn't mind visiting it and doing a story for Flightpath and the french Mags if he is happy for me to do so

Kind regards
John P

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Air Vice Marshall
Sunshine State Air Farce

I doubt he is willing to talk at this stage. He spends a lot of time at Rob Greinerts P47 shop and wasnt too impressed with the BS beating Rob recieved on the Pacific Wrecks website over the recovery of the Marion Lutes P47.

Kinda makes a guy publicity shy when good deeds are peed on.

I am sure that to a man this board supports recovery and restoration but
Justin Taylan hates aircraft recovery and wants too leave all wrecks in the bush and a lot of warbird recovery/rebuilder guys are now just going about their business and avoiding the media, especially Taylan.

There is some big plays in P39s happening this year outside of Wangarratta and I suggest the best place to read about it would Classic Wings magazine.

Hi John,
If you have the serial number of Dave's P-39 then you're doing better than me. With a bit of research I could possibly determine the serial but it doesn't really bother me anyway. He's got a P-39 project underway and that's what matters. They're a great looking bird and hopefully his efforts will result in another complete aircraft among the survivors of the type.

Dennis could attest that the information I supplied him does not serve to provide an identity to the project nor help him to make contact with Dave. I sent him a PM because of the privacy issue. Without talking to Dave first, I am loath to discuss this project any further at this time. Please don't see this as being offensive towards yourself. It's just that I know from a couple of sources that it is desired to maintain a low profile for now - as indeed was indicated by Jungle Bob's post.

I've spoken to Dave in years past but it really hasn't been for quite a long time so I must try to contact him sometime and catch up. He's a nice guy with great ambitions so all power to him!

Cheers,
Matt

Hello WRG,

I am a long time visitor to WRG, and a first time posting to the new forum. My name is Justin Taylan, I am the creator or Pacific Wreck Database, www.pacificwrecks.com that I encourage you to visit and enjoy. I am the author of several publications related to WWII Pacific. I volunteer at several US aviation & history museums, and have visited the Pacific several times to document aircraft wrecks. My grandfather served there. I include in my profile my email address, and other contact information in case you want to reach me.



Jungle Bob, who are you? Your profile is blank? I really dislike people who post things on the internet, but are not willing to use their real names or identity. To me, that indicates they have something to hide, or are just involved in flaming on the internet.

I am a bit confused as Mr. Greinert did an interview regarding his recovery of Lute's P-47 from New Guinea, visit this link to read it:
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p ... index.html

And, details of the full story at:
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/listmanage ... 504.html#2

PacificWrecks.com has asked Mr. Greinert for interview about himself and his recovery work since 2003, but none has been given to date. He is aware that an interview is always open to him, if and when he ever chooses to do one.



I am eager to speak with anyone with information, photos or information related to WWII Pacific aircraft & relics. I encourage anyone interested in my commitment to history & aviation to visit my website and learn about my humble work related to history. I would like to remind

I am in favor of most wrecks being left where they are for their value as tourist sites and monuments to WWII. I am in favor of properly funded, well planned and public recoveries /restorations that benefit the peoples in the countries they are exported from and the larger world thur their display. One example is the RAAF's recovery of A-20s in the 1980s. As we all know, most projects often cost more and take far longer than expected, and its always frustrating to see private efforts stall. Also, many of the relics remaining today are of little value for restoration, other than perhaps as historical identities or patterns only, this observation is not my own but rather that of friend and colleagues who are greater experts on the topic.

Since I began my interest in Pacific aviation, I have met many amazing veterans, enthusiasts and warbird people. I have also been amazed to discover that a small minority use the terms 'preservation' and 'history' in different terms, and also that they jealously protect these relics and their interests for commercial gain, and threaten anyone who steps on their territory. My feeling is ordinary men flew these planes 60 years ago, and ordiary people, not just those privilaged to be warbird owners or restorers should be allowed to be involved with them.

Always, I am more than happy to dialog with anyone interest in these topics or to discuss the merits of recovery, and to learn from any new information. Having seen many aircraft wrecks myself and restorations, I am always eager to learn more. The 'media' aspects of wrecks, like Glacier Girl are just as important as the restored plane, in my opinion, and in that case specifically were so important to funding the project, and completing them.

I believe, that everyone should have the 'right' to know where former WWII aircraft reside, have their history - both wartime and today (recovery, owner, how to see them) publicly available.

Meanwhile visit PacificWrecks.com for more interviews, information & news or sign up for our monthly free email news update. I have many exciting news stories planned for 2005 including interviews with Pacific salvagers & restorers, new discoveries and even a history of recovery from Post-War to present.

Yours in history,
- Justin Taylan

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Pacific Wrecks
http://www.pacificwrecks.com

Ok, but how long will they reside there if the aren't recovered. They will rust and corrode, or they will become someones pots and pans.

Also, Justin:

Keep in mind there are several aircraft salvers on this website, and I'm planning a recovery out of the Pacific area in the near future.

Hi there,

A very good question... I too would have thought that these aircraft would just rust away, but after visiting them, in some cases the same wreck over several years, or in photographs for over 40, 50 or 60 years.... its not the case. Sure, any metal parts are rusted and junk... and were/are useless. But, certainly the aluminum 'shell' of the plane is there... in the right conditions, under jungle, etc the wreck will be there 'forever'.

The larger part of this is people.... in places where there is large population, or economic pressures (like, most places in Indonesida or Philippines) fewer wrecks exisit (but there are still some in remote places) because they were cleaned up, scrapped or otherwise removed decades ago.

On the same token, local people are now wiser about the 'value' of these wrecks... either because they see them as tourist potential (outsiders come to look at them/SCUBA dive on them, visit them) and pay us to be their guides or take photos. Or, sometimes THEY have a connection to the wreck - thier grandfather buired the dead crew, or remembered the crash, etc. Since these wrecks have sat on 'their' land for the past 60+ years, they also have a role in them too.

But this is a complicated matter... certainly if a wreck is in danager, or will yeild important part of a well funded / planned recovery, its worth it, provided there are no MIA issues or other sesitivities.

On the same token, most BEST wrecks have mostly all been taken... the idea that there is a pristine plane in the jungle, that just needs oil and gas and air in the tires is fantasy (although i hope there is such a plane out there!)

What are left now are aircraft that although they might have aluminium portions useful in restorations, these would be for the basis of copying or historical identity only. My feeling is that these wrecksites themselves are important too, so in these cases, cheaper/better/sounder decision to leave them.

If, say a crashed Battle of Britain Bf-109 was left the English countryside still remained, that was beyond restoration due to its condition, it would have just as great a draw as a restored plane in a hanger? That is my feeling. Probably, they would make an entire park built around such an artifact.

- Justin

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Pacific Wrecks
http://www.pacificwrecks.com

Really, so that's why so many are corroded? Do you know that once corrosion starts, it will start flaking back to ALO2 (dust) , and those planes will not last forever. I guess since some of us are young, that "forever" is 15 more years?

Anyway, argument aside, can you confirm if Halmahera has many planes around?

Thanks,

Chris

HarvardIV, you are correct, yes, the remaining aircraft that are left ARE corroded... for purposes of restoration or flight. But, as 'structures' they are still intact, they have already been 'exposed' for 60+ years and are very much still there. Sure, one would never hope to fly or use these planes again, but as a structure they were intact.

I am sure there are others on this board who can comment further about these point.

There is an interesting USAF survey, i will have to find the links to it where they abandoned planes in varous environments to see how long it too them to 'corode' for insignts about what to look for if a plane crashed. Basically, they gave up as the aluminium at least was holding up. If anyone has a link to this, let me know, maybe I read it in the report, if so will post to the web as very interesting stuff.

On the other side, in discussions with restorations, even pristine materials, like the P-47s dug up from Finschafen a few years ago and exported to CA, these are reported to be dissapointing as to what they yeilded for usable stuff in restoration, but the idea that it is real planes from a combat theater is the exciting part.

The statement, 'the wrecks are all dying' is often prepetuated by salvagers seeking to close deals, but really is not true. The reality is these wrecks have been there for 60+ years, and 'new' WWII wrecks will be found and discovered in the next decades... even beyond my lifetime. So, the aim of my humble efforts is to have enough info amassed that decades down the line some of these future discoveries and known wreck sites will be able to be identified or apreciated for their hitorical value, as probably they all can not be salvaged.

My point is that +60 years later, the same aircraft are there, and in specifics cases, I have photographic evidence from WWII up to today showing little, if any, external changes to a wreck, aside from 'human' damage, like taking instruments, etc, etc. In other cases only 30-10 years of evidence, but very little change observed in that span either.

Halamaheras
An interesting location! I have never been there myself, so i can not comment as to what is there today. I have collected a lot of historical information about that group. After the war, it was one of the collection / disposal places for aircraft (at Morotai) They were smelted down in late 40s, very thuroughly. I have a few photos of these dumps, will locate and add them to that page.

But, even to that seeminly remote area, there is a lot of tourism / SCUBA tourism. For instance, several amazing P-47 that ditched off Wai Island.
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/irian.html

Here is the history behind one of them:
http://www.pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/p-47/wai.html
If you want to dive it, i recommend Max Ammer's dive company, Irian Diving, also tell him i said hello. Here is the webpage:
http://www.iriandiving.com/Main-page.html

If anyone has been out to the Halmahera area recently... or ever. I would be interested to hear from you, or learn about your travels there.

Best,
- Justin

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Pacific Wrecks
http://www.pacificwrecks.com

Justin:

Thanks for the info on Halmahera.


I don't know Justin, but you may want to read up on metalurgy. You are also making generalizations. I have hands on experience in rebuilding a Harvard, and corrosion does get nasty especially when it starts flaking (intergranular).

Using parts as a pattern is a good practice, as it makes something very difficult to produce now very doable.

Recovering a plane with corroded skins, and a few corroded bulkheads is a reasonable task. Making an exact replica w/o patterns is extremely difficult. May I suggest that you try rebuilding one, any you'll see for yourself.

Also, wondering how long you think the wrecks will last? I'd like to see quotes out of a metalurgy book, and specific documentation to support your answer.


Chris

Chris,

I am not a restorer myself, nor will i ever be one, but have held a rivet gun and observed several. I admire it as an 'art' and also marvel at the funds, hours and creativity that must go into even restoring a common warbird, versus the rarer types.

Under the right condition a wreck, like a restored plane, will last 'forever'. Ofcourse this is true in some sense - undercarrage legs, engine block, etc these will be there unless removed. At what point does it fail to be an 'airplane', that is the point I am interested in, and making with general statements. I would argue that they are no longer airplanes since the day they crashed. Also, there are outstanding / unique cases of natural preservation, say, like B-24 'Lady Be Good' that Buffallo, etc or other less famous but equally amazing examples.

Of note, there are also natural circumstances, like environments where wreck was/is in sea and air, this seems to cause corrosion faster, but even there the aluminum is still present, just weakened or its surface corroded, it does not dissolve to nothing, or at least not in the past 60 years.

Like you said, the baffling part is that it is 'cheaper' in terms of cost & labor to get a recovered part and re-manufacture a new piece off that. This is why there are virtually no P-40 wrecks left in places like New Guinea, due to the 'demand'.

I will look for that USAF survey as that report was paid for by US goverment and greatly amazed me to read it. I will leave the metalurgy side of it to someone like yourself to elaborate / provide the counterpoint.

Best,
- Justin

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Pacific Wrecks
http://www.pacificwrecks.com

Ok Justin:

I'll check into it.

Thanks,

Chris

Hi Rob:

It looks like we agree this time.