The failure to properly train new A&P's

[Enemy Ace]

Warbirders are a very hands-on group. I got into doing aircraft mx work by helping an Atlanta based mustang owner (at the time) out doing mx, mostly grunt work, cleaning bearings etc. At the time I considered myself lucky just to be around airplanes.
I did not go to A&P school, I got my A&P by logging experience. Later, I was able to spend time teaching at a privately owned A&P school (part of a large chain of such schools). What I saw there was appalling, the students are not allowed to actually work on hardly anything, they are told to memorize the textbooks and watch videos instead of doing hands on work. I provided my own covering supplies so that my class could learn covering basics. I bought in old carbs so they could actually take one apart, etc.
When these students actually graduate and get an A&P (@ 1 student in a class of 30 actually gets licensed) they are qualified... To try and get a job as a lineboy or hangar sweep. BTW the school costs north of $30k now.
I know that I would have liked to have seen more electronics/avionics training and troubleshooting, some real world sheet metal experience,etc.
My company cannot find competent A&P's, even though we get dozens of resumes a week.
Would like to know other's thoughts on this subject.

[Robbie Roberts]

I teach airframs subjects at a well known A&P school in the Northeast. Part of the problems I see are:

Students recruited are quite often not interested in aircraft- they merely see it is a chance to get a job, etc. Many have no clear concept of the realities of life, how to use tools, how to be on time, how to do a good job- basically, they just are here thinkingthey can slide by, and get a "license"(certificate) and get this high paying job.

I have other thoughts, and need to organize them, but I will post them later.

I DO have many GOOD and DEDICATED students as well- they are the ones who make it vworthwhile. But for every 20 or so that start, usually only 2 or 3 graduate on time, or even at all...

Robbie

[mike furline]

I have to admit when I went to A&P school 26+ years ago I was one of those 17-19 year old snot nosed kids.
I grew up around aviation, I was a warbird nut, my dad owned a few planes, but as a teen I wasn't much interested in A&P school.

I went on to work & restore some warbirds, was a mech on Air Force Two and did 20 years at United Airlines.
I remember my first day at United, I was working sheetmetal and my first job was a repair on a B727 up near the pitot tubes. I was handed an SRM by the Sheetmetal Lead and turned loose. That SRM could have been in Chinese for all I knew. I was lost, confused & scared. Little by little I caught on and over time I became the Sheetmetal Lead before going to Line Maintenance. Where the lost, confused & scarred started all over again.

After working on wide-bodies nothing seems that daunting of a project anymore. Being around them on a daily basis, B747's don't even seem that big.
But then, I probably couldn't time a magneto without reading the manual. It's been a long, long time. I guess it's all relative to what you do.

A&P school certainly didn't prepare me (my fault as well) for any of those jobs. I don't think any school can, it just gets you an A&P ticket so you can go out and learn some more.

They don't teach Chapter 38 in any A&P school! Oh, the Glory of Aviation.

P.S. For all you non-airline types, Chapter 38 in the MM = Toilets, the clogged type.


Regards,
Mike

Last edited by mike furline on Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[Airlift48]

I also earned my A&P through experience,and yes there are areas I need more experience in, and am working towards gaining that experience.

I am also, more importantly, a high school shop teacher by trade and I absolutely agree with your statement:

Many have no clear concept of the realities of life, how to use tools, how to be on time, how to do a good job- basically, they just are here thinkingthey can slide by, and get a "license"(certificate) and get this high paying job.

That attitude of the kids today is not exclusive to A&P school, but to education in general. The do-nothing, expect everything student is becoming more and more commonplace.

With 13 years down and 18 to go, I only hope it can go up from here...

[N3Njeff]

Well I would not be a good example on what to expect out of a A&P school.

At the age of 10 I was taught how to hand pack wheel bearings. If I wanted to fly, I needed to know how to maintain them. When I got out of HS, I went to an A&P school. I took the evening classes and I was working for a banner tow outfit just down the street. So during the day, I was working on airplanes that my friends flew. I would also do some part time work at a friend of the family's Radial OVH shop FOR THE LOVE OF IT AND NO MONEY!!

While some students would run to the smaller airplanes during engine compression checks, I would con another student to help me with the Beech 18!!!! I even got some gaskets donated to the school from that radial engine shop so "I off school hours" could pull 2 cylinders and change the seals to stop MAJOR leaks.

Out of A&P school with a ticket, I said good by to banner cubs 5 months later and threw myself into the world of AIRLINES. Two airlines and 15 yrs of night shift, in sept of 08 I took the big pay cut and kicked the door shut to the airline world. I have done a little of everything over the years and that is truly what you make of it as with anything in life. I work on airplanes because I love airplanes..............I really know nothing else. Now that I am working in GA again, everything from C-172's to our company KingAir's and Cessna Ultras. Making what I made in 2001 its not easy to keep the toys but I am still in it for the love of AIRPLANES!

[Bill Greenwood]

Kevin, some kids today may not have a serious attitude, but some certainly do. I don't know if he still qualifies as a kid, but my Son Charles is a 2nd year law student at CU and I have seen how hard he studies. Last year he was putting in about 6 days a week almost full time. I know of other students here and elsewhere that are also. Of course, I don't teach at an A&P school so don't see what you do.

On a sort of related thing, back in the 50s my older Brother Jimmy was in the Air Force. He had two friends who also went in. One knew something about mechanical things and they made him a cook. The other was sent to mechanic school, then assigned to Ellington AFB in Houston. When he reported for duty where the F-86 s were maintained, the real guys told him to do whatever he wanted, except not to touch to planes. The maintenance was done by guys under contract, rather than new trainees. This is the story I heard years ago, can't verify it.

[mustangdriver]

I went to the Pittsburgh Institute of Aeronautics for a semester. It was a joke. I was there to become an aircraft mechanic, and they had us watching video on stuff that we would never use. I switched majors and schools, and became an air traffic controller instead.

[Airlift48]

I agree, Bill. Not ALL kids have the lackadaisical attitude I described. I have had many, many successful students over the years. A few Architects, several Civil Engineers, Mechaincal Engineers, and Electrical Engineers, and a few Pilots (God forbid! )

What I said was that this attitude, unfortunately, is becoming more and more the norm amongst the younger generation, and I teach in a very high ranked High School, not an A&P school.

What really gets me is the child study teams/school psychologists/special ed depts and even guidance departments do little to correct it. It seems to me that while they try to help, they have become enablers by virtue of the student accomodations and IEP's they create with different intent.

But, I digress, this topic is about A&P schools, but the principles and troubles are one in the same.

KK

[PbyCat-Guy]

Does any one have any recomendations for A&P school, or how to get the A&P? I did 6 months of apprentice work for the A&P, so I'd like to get this finnished. I live in the Philadelphia area.

[John Dupre]

I read a column in a magazine by a well known A&P who has an impressive resume. He was also bemoaning the lack of knowledge in A&Ps today and did an informal study with his contacts in the industry. The general conclusion was that school trained A&Ps began to decline in skills and knowledge in the 1980s and 1986 was the watershed year when most of the respondents felt that they could identify that A&Ps were not as knowledgeable. Some went so far as not hiring anyone who got his ticket later than 1986. How long can you keep that up.

I went to a pretty good school (1981-1982) with lots of WW2 vets who had practically pioneered aviation as instructors. I would say that the class had only a few kids that didn't really care about what they were doing in school but they all understood mechanical things. Out of about 30 students in my class I have never met or heard of any of them in aviation or out in 26 years.

I work with a guy who has over the years hired and trained hundreds of mechanics. During the interview he typically asks the applicant to verbally describe how a magneto works, or another basic concept. He has found in the last few years that most applicants can't do it. One constant seems to be that the few good candidates are typically gear heads, they like mechanical things and airplanes appeal to them because there are so many different skills involved.

My old school is still there now on its third owner since the original family sold it. When I was there they prided themselves on having a curriculum that was I think 100 or 200 hours over the FAA minimum. In the last decade or so they basically teach the test to the point that books and other materials have all the questions from the tests highlighted.

As for attitude don't get me started. I have a 23 year old with a college degree who feels that he is destroying himself by working at a convenience store 20 hours a week.

[Robbie Roberts]

Does any one have any recomendations for A&P school, or how to get the A&P? I did 6 months of apprentice work for the A&P, so I'd like to get this finnished. I live in the Philadelphia area.

Contact me off list- Robbie

[Chris]

I got mine by working on warbirds with the CAF. Like a lot of others, I started out packing bearings and pulling parts off planes and helping the mechs put everything back together. The gearhead term applied to me as my older brother had a group of friends who were into drag racing so from an early age, maybe 8 or 9, I knew how to tune up my brothers 55 chevy hotrod. My first experience with aircraft, I was lucky enough to meet Jerry Decker. The Arizona Wing was going through a C-45 and I started asking a bunch of questions. He immediately introduced me to the tech orders and showed me how to look up any information I might need whether it was basic maintenance, structural repairs, or installing new o rings in an actuator. So I learned early how and where to look up what I needed to know. He told me, don't try to remember anything, just know how to look it up. After about ten years, I was speaking to Dave Donahue out at the hangar. I had no idea at the time he was a DME but we sat talking B-25s for about two hours and he asked how long I'd had my A&P. I told him I didn't have it yet but would like to get it. He encouraged me to take the written and when I passed them to call him and set up an appointment. Two months later I was legally dangerous. If you read my quote down at the bottom, I really believe that to be true. It seems like I learn something new everytime I work on something. Any young kids that come around and want to help, I try to give them as much hands on as might be safe and practical. They can learn all the regs out of a book but if you want to learn to rivet, you have to rivet. There's just no substitute for getting dirty and greasy. Gotta luv it!!!!!

[kenlyco]

An A&P is just a first stepping stone into Aircraft maintenance, it only gives you the basics on how to do a variety of jobs you might see out in the field.They are not training you to be a Master in one area,don't let any School fool you they just want that check, If I was not a aircraft refueler for 15 years I would have been clueless when I went to School ,it is just a positive check in the box on your resume,why do you think most IA'S are gray and alky's.become a lineman (not lineboy) and you will learn more than you think before you go to School....

Last edited by kenlyco on Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[N3Njeff]

John, I had to laugh at your Magneto comment. It reminded me of a guy I worked with who BRAGGED about how he took his practicals and the instructor showed him a magneto and he did not know what it was and he told him that he trained on turbine engines and he STILL passed him!!!!!!

This mech did NOT go to a school but was a aircraft cleaner at a company that I worked for and he would turn wrenches after the airplanes were done with another mechanic. There were a couple of guys that got their A&P's that way with them. I wont comment on his abilities but I personally did help one with his ticket and he certinly DID know what a magneto was and how to time one!!!!! I dont know how he ended up as a mechanic as I left the company shortly there after he got his ticket.

[tinbender2]

The General Aviation shops I have worked for, will no longer hire someone just out of A&P school, or just out of the military/airlines, even with a license. Unless you have a verified track record of making money at a previous GA shop, your resume goes in the trash. There are thousands of mechanics out there that cannot safely perform GA maintenance, and many more that cannot do it and make a profit.

The school grads have been a complete waste of time and money for the shops. These guys were taught how to pass the tests, not how to maintain an aircraft. Their hands-on training was on non-airworthy relics like Bell-47s, DC-3s, F-105s, etc. Most had no real interest in aircraft, just thought it would an avenue to a high-paying job. They don’t even know what a P-51 is.

Their work ethic sucks. They expend considerable effort trying to do as little work as possible, and avoiding jobs that require critical thinking.

The schools are taking guys with NO mechanical aptitude, and pushing them through, to collect the almighty tuition. They cannot troubleshoot even the simplest problems. They have to be watched constantly, and can screw up simple jobs. They often quit/get fired after a few months, and have a long list of previous employers in a short period of time.

The shops used to hire them, knowing they won’t turn a profit for 3 months, but often realizing that, after 6 months, they weren’t ever going to make a profit. We sent a guy to Bonanza school after 9 months in the shop, working mainly single-engine pistons. After returning from school, we gave him a NEW bonanza for a simple annual. He took 92 hours and had to have several other mechanics help him through it. Flat rate for a beat up Bonanza was 32 hrs.

The guys from the military/airlines usually do one specific thing, like hydraulics, fuel tanks, structures, etc. In GA, they need to be able to work on every system. They are lost, when told they need to troubleshoot the problem, research the repair, estimate parts/labor, consult with the customer, order parts, perform the repair successfully the first time, do the paperwork, etc., all within the quoted labor estimate.

I do a lot of structural repairs, minor and major. I have gone through about a dozen “assistants” who wanted to learn the craft, but just didn’t have the aptitude for it. They can grasp how to buck rivets, but when it comes to working metal with tolerances of .002, the closest they can do is .015, and they cannot read blueprints, nor apply the basics of 43-13 to a job. A significant number of my jobs are repairing someone else’s botched sheet metal repairs, including ones that are obviously illegal. I’m amazed so many mechanics think hardware store pop rivets and auto “bondo” putty are acceptable repair materials.