Warbird Information Exchange

I have to apologize from the start...This is a rant....

I know we have several members who are either a part of a museum's staff, a curator, or formerly involved in one of these roles and I have a few very direct questions. I do not ask as an offense but purely out of frustration. I would be more than happy to discuss this off board, though, I think the following have very direct impact on this board. So, without further ado...

1. Does anyone know the secret handshake that opens up the door to information from museum sources? Specifically, I have sent 3 (three) request to the Intrepid Museum curator for information on their displays I have not recieved even the first reply to these requests, though somehow I was magically added to the send all information on a weekly basis about all the happenings at the museum.(Frontiers of Flight Museum in Dallas, WWII Museum in New Orleans, New England Air Museum and Cradle of Aviation Museum are other museums that I have asked for information and recieved none.) To be specific, and someone please let me know if I am wrong, the fact that airplanes that are owned by the US government are a part of the collection, there should be no secrecy. IF the US Navy has loaned an airplane to the museum, then the airplanes ID is not classified as secret is it? (Just so everyone knows one of the questions....What is the ID of the Avenger at the Museum. It is on loan from the NMNA so it's ID should either be KNOWN or UNKNOWN! The loan records should reflect that and I can see no reason for a curator or the Navy to hide the information!)

2. Does anyone know the secret handshake that opens up the door to information from museum sources? Specifically why requests for information on airplanes in a collection are not forwarded to someone who has the information? I have recieved numerous responses with "xyz, receptionist" that say, "this is all the information I have." IF the collection was privately owned, and was not interested in providing information, then fine, reply "Thank you for your interest, but we are not willing to provide that information at this time." However, a public collection with donations from various sources MAY, in my opinion, be able to say, "we are not at liberty to discuss how this airplane came to the collection." (To be specific, I sent requests to two private museums in the last year. First was the Cavanaugh which replied very quickly and provided the information I requested. The second was Fantasy of Flight, which I got some information on the first request and feel like I was politely blown off on the second.) I know that a private museum is at its liberty to open its records if it wishes. However, a response that states "this is a private collection therefore that information is not available" is preferable to no response at all.

3. Does anyone know the secret handshake that opens up the door to information from museum sources? Specifically, why some museums do not provide on their websites the specifics of the collection. I can understand some museums having airframes on loan and not on display because they are in dispute or in disrepair and there is no desire to advertise. However in this day and age, with technology the way it is, why try to hide things or create irregularities? (recently there was a discussion about the correct lineage of an airframe on this website!)

I have more for the rant, but for now, I think I will see how these 3 questions play out. I appreciate any input from people affiliated with museums, as well as any opinions which provoke thought opposite my line of thinking.

dave

I'd venture a guess that most of 'em probably don't know why you want to know, have plenty of other things to do, and probably don't feel it's worth their time.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

That would be an odd atttitude for an institution whose mission, presumably, is to educate
the public and preserve history...even odder considering they're public funded to one degree
or another.

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt..maybe their e-mail is defective or something. Send
'em a "test" mail, asking who and when you could meet, in order to hand over a large
donation. See if you get the courtesy of a reply then?

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

Simple answer - it often comes down to resources. The person(s) responsible for the websites and that receive the emails may not have the information. They will forward to the 'responsible' party, who 1) if they have time and 2) remember when they do have time, will answer your email. However, they likely don't have the time to perform the research requested.
As for a list of all aircraft on display, when you have a static museum, there is no reason not to have this list. However, if it's a flying museum, it is much harder to maintain an accurate list and the staff (e.g. giftshop or other such persons) do not always want to deal with the irate customer complaining because a specific plane was not on site the day they came to visit.
I post this as a former webmaster of planesoffame.org and a volunteer.
Hope that helps.

Dave, I hate to say it, but you've got a very weird entitlement attitude about this topic -- at least in the way that you've written the post -- that I could very easily see putting people off.

Maybe you're going about asking the wrong way.

The "secret handshake" may just be staying respectful while you remain persistent.

_________________

I think Cindy's comments are very in tune with how things seem to work at many museums. One thing you have to remember when working with a museum is that a large percentage of their work force is going ot be volunteer. With volunteerism you get an interesting dynamic.

First of all you generally have your core group of dedicated volunteers who make up a small percentage of that group. Then you have your larger group of volunteers that have a great deal of turn over. They stop by and work a couple of times and may be itnerested in helping but due to having other things come up in life that they have to deal with or maybe a loss of interest put a priority on other things and don't return to work again.

Most museums are working on a tight budget and have less staff than there is work to do so you ahve to prioritize what you do. There isn't this big group of paid people who have a meeting every day to discuss where things are at and develope metrics on how many customers have called in with questions and what was the time to resolution on thier queries. While their goal may be to preserve history or educate others they are often concerned with issues such as how they are going to pay the next installment of insurance or who is going to clean the bathrooms than they are in answering every email that comes in.

Just as Cindy said, often the person who answers the emails may have the best intensions in the world, but at the same time that is not always the same person who knows the intimate details of the collection and rather it is some person who is "handy" with PCs and happens to help update the website every 36 months when they find time to do so. They forward it on and then the person they forward it to may be the expert on every aircraft in the world but they are also 70 years old and signed onto their email once when their grandkid helped them set it up but he only checks it every once in a blue moon.

I think you are making the assumption here that these places operate like your typical customer facing business that has staff dedicated to answering customer questions because each question could lead to a sale. These groups rely on events and sponsors to keep things in the black and the person who answers the emails is used to getting questions like "Are you open on Labor Day? What is the date of your airshow? Is there a discount for seniors or veterans?" There isn't a call center of people with a database of information to provide every person with an immediate answer to every question.

Most museums are looking for help themselves and just don't have the resources or structure to provide information as seamlessly as you might think. Maybe you could ask the people how you can volunteer at these places and be the one who keeps track of that information and provides it to customers.

Ryan

In addition, the "secret handshake" may be making friends here and on other forums like AirShowBuzz and FenceCheck where there are "locals" that may be able to get the information for you in person. I know that on more than one occasion I've gotten information this way, especially since many museums don't have any "staff" researcher, much less a "staff" website designer/maintainer/technician. I also know that, for example, many of the CAF unit websites are hosted by a single person. He does a great job of updating information as it's given to him, but he doesn't have the time to go out and gather the information himself because he's doing the work of hosting and updating all of those websites plus others.

I think it comes down to the fact that these museums don't exist for us to see from the internet. They exist for us to see in person and as such, they focus most of their resources (as limited as they typically are) on the in-person experience. There are only a few aviation museums I know of that have anyone on staff that does research and can fill research requests, and all of them are government funded (NMUSAF, NMNA, NASM, etc). Not even a museum like the SAC museum or Wings Over the Rockies (both of which have very extensive archives) have staff researchers. They both rely on volunteers to maintain and catalog the collection and do whatever they can to fill the requests that are received.

I doubt if they are trying to hide anything, you probably did not reach the right person.

About 2002 I was at EAA Airventure and getting ready to fly home, when I heard about Thunder Over Michigan having a show that next weekend, and seeking some planes. Since the plane was healthy, the weather was good, and I was current, I was interested. It was about an hour and a half flight for me from Oshkosh, and I knew some of the Yankee Air Museum folks were nice guys. Anyway, I could not find anyone to ask on the grounds at Osh, most had already left, and I didn't have a car pass to drive down to the bomber area at the south central part. So I phoned over to the museum at Willow Run. The older man who answered the phone was very polite, but could not help me at all. I think he was just a volunteer an didn't know much outside his area. The best he suggested was to call back next week when the guys who had gone to Osh would be back.

So I could either east and take a chance that they might want my plane, and maybe be able to offer some fuel and expense money, or maybe not. So, I just gave up and headed home. I found out later that they were really looking for a Spit, and they were disappointed that we had not been able to connect.

Sometimes that is just the way of groups.

_________________
Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

.
Perhaps I can comment from the other side? I am the Secretary and "webmaster" of a Volunteer, not for profit museum and therefore I receive any requests for information from us, and try to answer them as directly and quickly as I can.

I receive museum emails directly to my work and home PC allowing me to provide prompt response or action, however many volunteer groups only check emails on the Museum PC each weekend, and in some cases print those off and table them into committee meetings etc for actioning.

Of course museums with paid staff will receive emails each working day, but that doesnt mean they have the resources to answer them each day.

Museums are primarily there to conserve/preserve objects in their collection, often with a further objective to make those available for viewing / research by the public and bonefide researchers/historians, usually by attending the museum site, or via online website information, responding to individual requests for information is usually a much lower priority than the objectives above.

What is a Museum?
The Museums Australia Constitution (2002) defines a 'museum' as an institution with the following characteristics:

A museum helps people understand the world by using objects and ideas to interpret the past and present and explore the future. A museum preserves and researches collections, and makes objects and information accessible in actual and virtual environments. Museums are established in the public interest as permanent, not-for-profit organisations that contribute long-term value to communities.

The International Council of Museums (ICOM) describes a museum as:

a non-profit making permanent institution in the service of society and of its development, open to the public, which acquires, conserves, researches, communicates and exhibits, for purposes of study, education and enjoyment, the tangible and intangible evidence of people and their environment.

Museums prioritise their resources into maintaining and protecting their collections, and then making them available to the public.

However, regardless of a museum being Government, Private or Volunteer, few have dedicated researchers on hand waiting for requests to arrive, and there is a cost in manpower to recover information and send it off, even if that manpower is volunteer and free.

Not every one in a Museum knows the historical details of each exhibit, in fact there are many museums with incorrect display boards and even website entries describing one or more of their exhibits, mis-leading themselves and external researchers. This is without allowing for aircraft intentionally displayed in ficticious colours and markings for so long that the original identity is overlooked or forgotten. Surprisingly this happened to a pre war Supermarine Schnieder Throphy aircraft in the UK in a major collection.

I am currently undertaking a Significance Assessment of our own collection, which requires me to dredge through our museum's files on each exhibit, while some files are full of valuable and insightful information, others are scant in their detail, reflecting what was available at the time, or the effort undertaken by volunteers at the time of acquisition. In some cases I am finding information in the files that is not commonly known about the history of our aircraft and I am using that to update our website etc, I suspect some of your questions would similarly require someone to access to their museum's files and records, that all takes time.

I dont think many museums want to hide information, unless there is some contraversy or legal uncertainty associated, Museums are there to collect and preserve heritage, and make it available to the public, schools, researchers and historians, most are not perfect, and most are just struggling to do the best that they can, focusing on what they think are important issues and priorities for them.

Your issues and requests for information, while important and a priority to you, may not be seen so at the other end.




I think the first issue in the "secret handshake" is to introduce yourself and clearly explain the purpose of your request, where that it is understood and appreciated, the museum is more likely to prioritise your request over others.

Bonefide researchers who are going to publish etc information provided to them are seen to be extending the work of museums in providing their collection/information to the public, and therefore are likely to get more effort provided than private enthusiasts simply wanting to resolve a curiosity.

Your requests are likely to end up on someones desk or inbox, with many other requests etc, and if not easily replied, or researched, will risk being overtaken by other more important tasks.

Obviously any request that requires someone to go and research information in a file etc is likely to get a slower response than one able to replied directly from the top of the head.

Also allow for the fact that while email is instant its not infallible, some inboxes will overflow, or even divert mail from some providers into "junk" mail, meaning that your important email was never actually received, ( I have found my own PC lodging important incoming emails into my junk box, when I finally went looking for an expected incomer).

Often when I write to other museums seeking information / assistance I follow up my email with a personal call to ensure my email was received and understood, and this personal contact helps prioritise your request.

In fact where your request is complicated and you are unsure who to write to within the organisation, it may be better to call first, establish a point of contact who confirms they can resolve your request, and then follow that up with an email directly to that person, for them to formally respond.

Where an archive has held information of interest to me, I have always found it best to research the files myself as I know what I am looking for, or can spend more time looking, than a researcher.

The final advice is to be patient, the creation of email and instant communication has increased the volume of requests, but not the resources to answer them.

Regards

Mark Pilkington

_________________
20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Wow, this one took off a bit. I thought about low staffing and resources etc. but found Cindy, and others,
had covered that as well as other valid suggestions. Networking through forums or other organizations which
may be part of the culture around the museum may be a path to take. EAA, veterans organizations, etc.,
may get you introduced to the individual who will return your mail and aid you in your research.
Good luck, Dave!

_________________
He bowls overhand...He is the most interesting man in the world.
"In Peace Japan Breeds War", Eckstein, Harper and Bros., 3rd ed. 1943(1927, 1928,1942)
"Leave it to ol' Slim. I got ideas...and they're all vile, baby." South Dakota Slim
"Ahh..."The Deuce", 28,000 pounds of motherly love." quote from some Mojave Grunt
DBF

What has worked for me in the past is the telephone.
I have contacted several museums and spoke with the
curator/director, told them what I was seeking, they tell me
to shoot them an email listing what I want,
I get a reply.
telephone.

_________________
Kind Regards,
Gary Lewis
J.A.F.O.

Just to say this - I think my original answer was a bit terse, but to the point. It's just a matter of prioritization, time, availability of resources, depth of research, and the interest of the volunteers. I help out with the guys down at Cannon Field (Alamo Liaison Squadron) and while there's a LOT of things we'd like to do, we have limited resources, and basically all of us have "real" jobs to do outside. I do a lot of the research end of things for the squadron, and I think I have more L-birds books on my shelf than the squadron does, but even I probably couldn't answer the more detailed questions if they got deep enough.

Ryan

_________________
Aerial Photographer with Red Wing Aerial Photography currently based at KRBD and tailwheel CFI.
Websites: Texas Tailwheel Flight Training, DoolittleRaid.com and Lbirds.com.

The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD. - Prov. 21:31 - Train, Practice, Trust.

Oh WOW! This is response is much better than I expected! First let me start off by saying I started all this by saying this was a rant. I meant it, but I also hoped that a reaction would give me a basis for expectation (which can change) as well as a published understanding of the current environment today. I did call out a few museums, but really don’t feel guilty about it because, I have the data to back up what I posted. I will however be happy to correct my position if data arrives to change my stance.

So to start with, entitlement. Randy said,

"Dave, I hate to say it, but you've got a very weird entitlement attitude about this topic -- at least in the way that you've written the post -- that I could very easily see putting people off.

Maybe you're going about asking the wrong way.

The "secret handshake" may just be staying respectful while you remain persistent."

I thought about that, asked my wife, and then thought again. My decision, and mine alone, was skewed by a few factors. The first is the type of museum. Was it a grass roots, bare bones scraping for everything they can get museum, versus, established museums with well planned, thought out, and in some cases researched displays. There must be an understanding for any museum that the data you provide for your displays are available for dispute, criticism and or confirmation. We (fortunately) are still living in a period of “living” history. There are still contacts to the previous lives of many of the artifacts displayed today. Therefore, they have the opportunity, and in my opinion place, to carry history forward. That should be of public record!

What am I entitled to? That depends on a lot! However, some would say, that if they spend their $25-30, they are “entitled” to a few answers not available in the display or on the website. A donation entry would entitle the entrant a starting point for research!

This leads into where I thought life was….Ryan Shorts response.

"I'd venture a guess that most of 'em probably don't know why you want to know, have plenty of other things to do, and probably don't feel it's worth their time."

I had a similar thought, but was hopeful that attitude was not the case. As a member of group who spend a lot of time researching and ensuring the correct data is put forward (sorry Randy, but you are an example of a person whose research has corrected or changed how data is looked at going forward), I feel we have a “policing duty” as stewards of history to demand a factual representation online. Anything else propagates the false histories already available online or by word of mouth! (there are so many examples of this on this site….)

So where does the average Joe, the guy who may have the chance to visit a few museums a year start? I mean how does anyone get into the guts of an operation? Well, I have been very fortunate to have gotten to meet some members of this site on my touring, but also, met contacts at many museums to get an extra tour of some of the collection! Nothing can replace face time, though the internet is making that more difficult. However, do we have an insiders list or even a volunteer list for the museums that are willing to give us hardcore warbirders access? I always start with my list of trusted contacts, and then contact the museum, and finally ask on arrival about the best point of contact for the day and for future questions.

Like CAPFLYER said…

"In addition, the "secret handshake" may be making friends here and on other forums like AirShowBuzz and FenceCheck where there are "locals" that may be able to get the information for you in person. I know that on more than one occasion I've gotten information this way, especially since many museums don't have any "staff" researcher, much less a "staff" website designer/maintainer/technician."

Have I missed a step?

Like many of us, I have known Cindy as a person to put on your list to chat with about POF for many years. She is one of the people (more still out there) that I was hoping would respond to this. She said,

"Simple answer - it often comes down to resources. The person(s) responsible for the websites and that receive the emails may not have the information. They will forward to the 'responsible' party, who 1) if they have time and 2) remember when they do have time, will answer your email. However, they likely don't have the time to perform the research requested."

That seems to imply that the requests come on a basis, regular or not, which would allow the representative to simply look at an archive. However…seems to me that either a FAQ or something similar could be set up if that is the case. I as an amateur airplane chaser only look for an identity that will give me the details on the airplane. I have no expectation that a museum will give me all the data. I can do the research! Regardless, Cindy also stated,

"As for a list of all aircraft on display, when you have a static museum, there is no reason not to have this list."

This was the point of the start of the rant…

As stated from the start, I was hoping for opinions to help me with my mindset… Nice to see the other hemi chip in…

Mark P said…

"Museums are primarily there to conserve/preserve objects in their collection, often with a further objective to make those available for viewing / research by the public and bonefide researchers/historians, usually by attending the museum site, or via online website information, responding to individual requests for information is usually a much lower priority than the objectives above.

However, regardless of a museum being Government, Private or Volunteer, few have dedicated researchers on hand waiting for requests to arrive, and there is a cost in manpower to recover information and send it off, even if that manpower is volunteer and free.

Not every one in a Museum knows the historical details of each exhibit, in fact there are many museums with incorrect display boards and even website entries describing one or more of their exhibits, mis-leading themselves and external researchers. This is without allowing for aircraft intentionally displayed in ficticious colours and markings for so long that the original identity is overlooked or forgotten.

I am currently undertaking a Significance Assessment of our own collection, which requires me to dredge through our museum's files on each exhibit, while some files are full of valuable and insightful information, others are scant in their detail, reflecting what was available at the time, or the effort undertaken by volunteers at the time of acquisition. In some cases I am finding information in the files that is not commonly known about the history of our aircraft and I am using that to update our website etc, I suspect some of your questions would similarly require someone to access to their museum's files and records, that all takes time.

I think the first issue in the "secret handshake" is to introduce yourself and clearly explain the purpose of your request, where that it is understood and appreciated, the museum is more likely to prioritise your request over others.

The final advice is to be patient, the creation of email and instant communication has increased the volume of requests, but not the resources to answer them."

This is a very valuable assessment! Thank you so much for your input! I agree completely, and hope that more people find themselves in the same position. I have and always do via email and in introduction explain who I am, what I am doing, and what I want in detail. I never leave room for interpretation, as I am a selfish SOB! I want the data and hope to someday be able to look like an expert! However, all kidding aside, I do represent myself as what I am, a collector of images, and the history they represent.

There were many more pertinent and valid posts not included. Thanks to all who have posted so far, and I hope this discussion can lead to more readily available information in the future. My hope is that any museum finds itself willing to put the valid data on the airframes they possess in the public forum. We all know that history left to be debated in public is rarely correct!

dave

ps...sorry for the long response...

Hey Dave,

I have to agree with Mark P and Gary, a phone call is probably the best way to what you're looking for.

1.) It establishes a relationship right away
2.) It can let them know through a quick conversation that you know what you're talking about and you're not just trying to waste their time
3.) It allows you to find out who in the organization you do need to talk to, and how to get a hold of them.
4.) It is more likely to be answered right away (Not answering a phone is considered kind of rude, but ignoring an e-mail is too easy, and don't weigh on many peoples' consciences).

I also have to say that making connections helps too. WIX is a good avenue. There are countless organizations, Museums, and warbird owners I can think of that I could call upon to get some answers on many topics. In fact some will even take you out to a Cricket game when your in their neck of the woods.

So, good luck your information quest.

Peace,

David