"THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN" Memorial Day TCM

[DiggerWW2]

Gang, The Classic WW2 Film "THE BATTLE OF BRITAIN" will air on Monday (Memorial Day) on TCM at 3pm (Eastern).
This is a Great WW2 Aviation Movie!! Especially for the Spitfire fans (Like Me).
Here's a few Classic Clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuI0gFUq3HY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEhBnl16 ... ed&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43zVRey2 ... ed&search=

ALSO, Another WW2 Classic "WHERE EAGLES DARE" will air right afterwards at 5:15 (Eastern).
Ha! Ha! Here's the Original MAD Magazine Satire on this Movie:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/WED1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/WEDB.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/WED3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/WED4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/WED5.jpg

Here's some Clips from the Movie, including that bizarre Nazi Helicopter scene...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7sRK2W8 ... ed&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH51IJxoDgM&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPY9ee86 ... ed&search=

Here's an interesting "WHERE EAGLES DARE" Website:

http://www.whereeaglesdare.com/

Again, Both these WW2 Classics will air on Monday (Memorial Day) on TCM. "THE BATTLE OF BRITIAN" airs at 3pm (Eastern) 2pm (Central) 1pm (Mountain) & at Noon (Pacific). "WHERE EAGLES DARE" airs right afterwards.
Both are on DVD too, Don't miss'em!! .... Digger

[Steve Nelson]

I snarfed up the BoB special edition DVD as soon as it came out. It includes a 1969 "making of" feature that's a real hoot..Michael Kane dressed like Austin Powers saying "These days they call this 'swinging London,' but 25 years ago it was a lot different..."


SN

[DiggerWW2]

Ha! Ha! I was thinking that exact same thing while watching it!!
Michael Caine strolls through Carnaby Street during the "Swinging 60's". Asking people about what they remember about "The Battle of Britain". Ha! Ha! Most could care less...
Here's a shot of Micael Caine in front of a groovy Clothing Store on Carnaby Street. Note the authentic Austin Powers Jacket hanging in the window!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/ ... 2/BOB1.jpg

Digger

[SaxMan]

I borrowed the DVD from my father. It was the first time I watched the movie start to finish in about 20 some-odd years (other times I've watched snippets). While some of the special effects clearly show their age, most of the movie is timeless, and is still about as good as it gets when it comes to war movies. At least the planes act like they way they are supposed to and not have P-40s with F-18 flight envelopes like in "Pearls Harbor". A couple of questions / observations:

1. What happened to all the CASA 2111s (Heinkels)? I know the CAF got one of them which later crashed. How many others survived?

2. The movie, in my opinion, almost seems to give credence to Leigh-Mallory's "big wing" tactics, which, in reality, were not successful. Moreover the book the movie is based on "The Narrow Margin" pretty much discounts the "big wing" tactics as well.

[daveymac82c]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember that the Casa 2111's were still in the Spanish Air Force inventory during the filming of the movie, and therefore were flown by Spanish Air Force pilots. Anyways, that's what my memories suggestsion.

Where they all ended up, I don't know. I guess I really didn't answer your question, someone here will though.

Peace,

David

[k5083]

Bloody awful movie, actually, with wooden acting and a plot that was already tired in 1969. I find that I can only stand to watch it by fast-forwarding to the magnificent aerial sequences.

Unlike the Buchons which were being disposed of and were acquired by the film company, the 2111s returned to the Spanish air force and served as transports for a few more years before being disposed of. Unfortunately that led to a lower survival rate. Today there are several scattered around Europe, and 3 or 4 still in the USA. All either static display or unrestored.

August

[Tailspin]

Yeah, there are a lot of faults with the movie but I always watch it just to see the real Spits flying and of course Susannah York in her skivvies. I try to watch it as close to Sept. 15th as possible.
H

[JDK]

Bloody awful movie, actually, with wooden acting and a plot that was already tired in 1969.

Don't agree. But some of that's what you want out of a flick.

Not sure what's 'tired' about the plot, particularly. Apart from Ultra (not significant) and much detail but little strategy reviewed in the 1990s, I don't see where it's way off beam with history. Certainly it was too long and too big, for a film of entertainment, but for a film on history we got more scope. For that, I'd say it's a good thing as I'd rather have that than tighter and less accurate. Or am I missing your point? Certainly the alternative seems to be things like 1941 - a b s o l u t l y dreadful or the risible Pearl Harbor. I'm therefore greatful for the '68 effort.

While the acting isn't great, and the women's make up, hair and manner date Battle of Britain to its year (as they always do) it's actually a film I still enjoy overall - and as a narrative telling a real piece of history with a chosen line between fiction (the junior characters) and reality (the story-arc and senior characters) it works for me. But having been friends with several of the experts on the making of of this film for many years, I might be too close to it. I enjoyed watching the making of Memphis Belle II, and followed a good deal of the detail afterwards, but I've had a copy of the movie for five years without the slightest desire to watch it.

A good deal of the much vaunted 'real aeroplane non cgi' in Battle of Britain is actually excellent large scale model work filmed in Malta, and responsible for the realistic weathering copied by the art dept onto the real aircraft. The Spitfire into the drink, the mid air (they tried to do it again, but couldn't) and obviously the Stuka work. They were Ju 87D/Gs rather than Bs because the RAF Museum's G was supposed to be used, but the electrics got cooked when running it for trials - so the biggest divergence from originality by the modelmakers wasn't their fault.

Without the approach of Battle of Britain, I suspect much of Tora Tora Tora would have been made differently - specifically the points above, and having 'the enemy' reasonably rounded out as characters and speaking their own language, subtitled - rather than 'Aieee I die!' and 'Achtung Schpitfur!'ing everywhere.

The drive to some degree of authenticity in colours and markings - and particularly weathering was, for a war film, unusual in 1968, and I suspect remained a model for art departments through its dissemination in movie like Tora, but that may stretch a point.

Mrs JDK thinks York was as wet as a British summer.

It's notable that the 60s and 70s saw the 'big' war movies tackle the big battles (Longest Day, Battle of Britain, Tora, Bridge too Far) while the much vaunted 90s and 2000 movies tackle the small units in big stories (Saving Private Ryan, The Pacific, Full Metal Jacket, even Dark Blue World etc). I suspect that it's 'easier', avoiding the big-history arguments, and a reflection of the proletarian-people focussed history themes of today. (Junior soldiers 'good' leaders 'bad'.)

But the critical point is that Battle of Britain was vital in preserving numerous warbirds and kick starting a good deal of the movement; including feeding into the CAF. Those are giant shoulders we stand on today, and the celluloid is irrelevant.

Unlike the Buchons which were being disposed of and were acquired by the film company, the 2111s returned to the Spanish air force and served as transports for a few more years before being disposed of. Unfortunately that led to a lower survival rate. Today there are several scattered around Europe, and 3 or 4 still in the USA. All either static display or unrestored.

Strictly speaking the Buchons were indeed purchased outright by Spitfire productions, but all but two of the CASA 2111s were loaned to the film crew by the Spanish Air Force (jut to clarify August's point that could be read either way) along with the CASA 352s. IIRC, two of the CASA 2111s were bought and used for most of the sequences with fighters, and these two are the Cavenaugh and ex-Aces High machines.

[Warbird Kid]

I have to imagine some sort of bunker or storage building somewhere in Spain that holds a couple CASA 2111's still. At least, thats what I hope.

[DarenC1]

That's put me in the mood to watch the film on DVD this weekend. I've not seen it in a long time....

[Dudley Henriques]

I borrowed the DVD from my father. It was the first time I watched the movie start to finish in about 20 some-odd years (other times I've watched snippets). While some of the special effects clearly show their age, most of the movie is timeless, and is still about as good as it gets when it comes to war movies. At least the planes act like they way they are supposed to and not have P-40s with F-18 flight envelopes like in "Pearls Harbor". A couple of questions / observations:

1. What happened to all the CASA 2111s (Heinkels)? I know the CAF got one of them which later crashed. How many others survived?

2. The movie, in my opinion, almost seems to give credence to Leigh-Mallory's "big wing" tactics, which, in reality, were not successful. Moreover the book the movie is based on "The Narrow Margin" pretty much discounts the "big wing" tactics as well.

Just addressing the Big Wing issue generally and not specifically to your post;

I knew Bader and spoke with him several times on the Big Wing Theory.
I won't quote from private conversations but I will state flatly that stories about Douglas having strong anti Park feelings were never played out to me.
My impression was that Douglas had a great respect for Keith Park. They disagreed certainly and most certainly Douglas was never known for his "quiet approach" to making his points known either publicly or privately, but he never expressed anything of a personal dislike for Park to me anyway. I mention this only because this issue concerning Bader's relationship with Park has been questioned in the past.
The Big Wing Theory was actually Douglas' idea not Leigh Mallory's. They came together early on and did indeed "push" the BW issue to Dowding. Douglas has openly expressed the feeling that at certain times during the BOB it was difficult to form and control and that Park's "blitzkrieg" defensive tactics stressing individual squadrons operating under local control had merit early on in the battle. Bader felt strongly that the BW became much more viable later on in the battle.

Bader aside, my personal opinion is that Keith Park was correct in his time for his battle and for what he had to work with in assets . The BW theory will be argued for it's pros and cons as long as historians gather to break bread and hoist a few. )
Dudley Henriques

[SaxMan]

Thank you, Dudley. I'm always amazed by the wealth of information through personal contacts with historical figures like Bader that exists on this forum.

I think the best analogy I've read was that Park & Dowding were masters of defensive fighter tactics while Leigh-Mallory and Bader were masters of offensive fighter tactics.

Movies like BOB, were basically extensions of the Hollywood blockbusters. In the 50s, it was biblical blockbusters: 10 Commandments and Ben Hur, for example. In the 60s, it was the large scale war movies: Longest Day, BOB, Tora Tora Tora, etc. In the 70s, it was the disaster movies: Poseidon Adventure, Towering Inferno. Then, in the 80s, there became a movement towards "micro" -- focusing on individual units such as Platoon, or Full Metal Jacket. That seems to be continuing through today, although CGI now can make up for a lot of the gigantic sets, etc., that were so common in the big blockbuster movies.

[Dudley Henriques]

Thank you, Dudley. I'm always amazed by the wealth of information through personal contacts with historical figures like Bader that exists on this forum.

I think the best analogy I've read was that Park & Dowding were masters of defensive fighter tactics while Leigh-Mallory and Bader were masters of offensive fighter tactics.

Movies like BOB, were basically extensions of the Hollywood blockbusters. In the 50s, it was biblical blockbusters: 10 Commandments and Ben Hur, for example. In the 60s, it was the large scale war movies: Longest Day, BOB, Tora Tora Tora, etc. In the 70s, it was the disaster movies: Poseidon Adventure, Towering Inferno. Then, in the 80s, there became a movement towards "micro" -- focusing on individual units such as Platoon, or Full Metal Jacket. That seems to be continuing through today, although CGI now can make up for a lot of the gigantic sets, etc., that were so common in the big blockbuster movies.

The pilots I met from the BOB talked freely about Dowding being a bit slow to adapt to changing tactics, the Dowding Spread being an example of this. As the battle progressed, the RAF was quick to realize that strict battle discipline involving rigid formations and gun harmonization at longer ranges to insure hits both before and after the harmonization point wasn't the way to go. The Germans use of section tactics were actually the harbinger of United States fighter tactics to come long afterward. Loose Deuce, fluid two, and fluid four were in play but unnamed as yet. The RAF adapted through innovative action by the pilots on ops, but Fighter Command was a bit slow due to Dowding's failure to adapt.
Eventually, the RAF did adapt and by doing so won the BOB.
Churchill was right really. It wasn't Fighter Command that won the BOB. It was the fighter pilots themselves acting on their own initiative that won the day for Britain.
Dudley Henriques

[Mark V]

The drive to some degree of authenticity in colours and markings - and particularly weathering was, for a war film, unusual in 1968, and I suspect remained a model for art departments through its dissemination in movie like Tora, but that may stretch a point.

Not at all - I think the influence was still being felt last year in Red Tails.

[Mark V]

I think Dowding's biggest contribution to victory in 1940 was over before the Battle begun - his pushing forward, in the years immediately preceeding the war, of the worlds first co-ordinated, radar guided fighter home defence system. Without that......