Warbird Information Exchange

I've heard about the German ace with the highest reported kills Erich Hartmann but in reading his engagements with the US Arrmy Air Force I wondering how he was able to down so many P-51s. I'm assuming the P-51 was a superior fighter to his Messerschmitt Bf 109, so was it mainly a matter of the inexperience at the time of the US P-51 pilots he was facing as reported in the wikipedia quote below?

speaking of Luftwaffe victory claims, have some of these incredibly high individual totals ever been audited against Allied losses? I understand that many of these men were in constant combat for years and largely flew over their own land but I'm just curious how accurate these totals are?

I was under the impression that German victory claims were under even more intense scrutinization than American claims. If I recall correctly, Toliver and Constable cover this pretty extensively in their classic "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe." Didn't one German ace in Africa even commit suicide after it was found that he'd made up a number of victories?

On top of that, Hartmann flew some 1,400 combat missions (maybe more, I can't remember exactly) - you fly that many missions you're bound to pick up some experience. I don't find his victory total unreasonable considering the number of missions he flew between '42 and '45.

My $0.02

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Yes German claims were closely scrutinized before confirmation, one eyewitness a prerequisite. Of course this became more difficult late in the war, as far as 'paper work' was concerned. Other factors such as badly damaged aircraft returning to base are also a factor so there maybe a higher degree of 'probables.' Some Luftwaffe pilots (and other nationalities) were known to overclaim, and several were 'outed' by other pilots and faced harsh penalties.
Luftwaffe did not claim air to ground destroyed as 'kills' either as did the USAAF.
All the above is simlified to a large degree - there are many indepth analysis on dedicated forums.

Dave

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Luftwaffe claims have always been a subject of debate for a number of years. Although their awarding system was considered a lot more strict than the allied system, there were still overclaims (as there were on the allied side). As for Hartmann - for many years there have been people trying to either justify or discredit his claims. There was one author from Spain who claimed that Hartmann had no more than 75 kills.

As far as his Mustang kills - I believe he had something like 7 (or "claimed 7 depending who you're talking to). I don't think that is too unusual considering that he was in a "target rich" environment during the time in the war when he was encountering Mustangs (I think it over Czechoslovakia). Keep in mind that the majority of WW2 air to air kills resulted in the victor catching the victim by surprise.

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I think the disparity between Allied and Axis fighter pilot victories is due in large part to there being a lot more Allied aircraft to shoot at, as well as that the Luftwaffe pilots rarely rotated out of combat for long, unlike Allied pilots who could do a tour and go home. Those that lived, racked up enormous scores, but they faced amazingly difficult odds to survive the entire war in combat. I for one believe the victory counts as being close to the actual reality... obviously, there will be some which were mistakenly claimed, or shared.

Richard

PS. From what I remember, most of Hartmann's victories came over the Russian front. Russian aircraft and pilots were quite inferior to the Germans in the first couple of years of combat, since their officer corps had been so heavily depleted during Stalin's super-paranoid purges, where he executed huge numbers of his most skilled military officers. We didn't give the Russians the best of our gear either, and their own technology took some time to catch up. This is not to discount the creditable flying of the Germans, or those Russians who survived to learn how to fly and fight, or the highly capable fighters the Russians were able to field by the end of the war.

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Great feedback on Hartmann. I'm still somewhat surprised on the reported number of P-51s he was credited with. What were the performance advantages/disadvantages of these two aircraft P-51 and BF-109 had when engaging one another?

Quick look at Wiki shows that apart from a speed superiority of around 60 km/hr there wasn't much difference, and of course the 109 was more heavily armed and had a slightly better rate of climb.
An expert pilot like Hartmann would have little trouble in overcoming any speed disadvantage.

Dave


109G-6

Maximum speed: 640 km/h (398 mph) at 6,300 m (20,669 ft)
Cruise speed: 590 km/h (365 mph) at 6,000 m (19,680 ft)
Range: 850 km (528 mi) 1,000 km (621 mi) with droptank
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
Rate of climb: 17.0 m/s (3,345 ft/min)


P-51D

Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,600 m)
Cruise speed: 362 mph (580 km/h)
Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h)
Range: 1,650 mi (2,755 km) with external tanks
Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,800 m)
Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)

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Hartmann also flew a G 14

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Could be wrong, but seems to me Hartmann's Mustang kill (only 1 if memory serves in March 45) came in a K model. Let my father in law borrow my copy of the Blonde Knight of Germany or I would double check.

Also, out curiosity on the officer purge issue weren't the majority of Soviet pilots NCOs?

Edit here, did some searching and in interviews he claims 4, and a web version of his kills records two P-51s. Confused and wishing I had my book.

I've read that the ratio of kills to total missions flown for Luftwaffe and American pilots are roughly the same.

Very True - I saw a comparison between Gabreski and Galland, and their kill rates per mission were almost identical.

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Also, remember Hartman's tactics... he would sneak up behind until the other a/c filled his windscreen and then open fire. Can't hardly miss that way. With as much combat flying as he did, his skill level had to be orders of magnitude over most pilots.

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Lance Jones

Hartmann's tactics were to approach unobserved at high speed, preferably in a dive from out of the sun. He was mentored by Pauli Rossmann, who had a injured arm. As a result of his arm being understrength Rossmann did not engage in turning dogfights, one high speed pass and disengage.
This tactic served Hartmann well, he would remark many times that dissipating energy in a turning fight set a pilot up for an attack by other enemy aircraft when the pilot was concentrating on his dogfight opponent.
Luftwaffe criteria for awarding credits for victories was very strict, again refer to Toliver and Constable's works.
As far as kills per mission being the same could someone put up their source for that?

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I think Toliver and Constable had a side bar with this info in it. I just left work or I would have checked the book in the EAA library.

Zack

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