Me 262 Victory tally

[Shay]

By wars end how many Allies claimed victories over the ME262? Also what aircraft were used? I'm aware of Mustang and Spitfires being lucky against the Swallow but were there other types aswell?

On the other side of the coin, what was the ME262's final tally of aerial victories?

Shay
____________
Semper Fortis

[Randy Wilson]

I don't have access to my copy of The Me 262 Combat Diary right now but it showed 446 Allied planes downed by Me 262s with the loss of 190 Me 262s destroyed in combat operations. These were thought to be fairly accurate numbers based on research in the Public Record Office in London. The refence and numbers are also quoted in The Jet Race and the Second World War on page 106. Hope that helps.

Randy

[old iron]

Is there anything about the number of four-engine bombers among these 446 Allied aircraft?

[Randy Wilson]

As I noted, right now I don't have access to the book that may have some of these answers but some googling did turn up information on who and what type of U.S. fighters shot down Me 262s here:
http://www.afhra.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-100315-020.pdf
It also lists some other good resources for further research.

Randy

[Dan K]

I believe that in addition to allied aircraft credited with Me-262 kills already mentioned would include Tempest Mk V, Yak-9, and La-7.

[billtate]

By wars end how many Allies claimed victories over the ME262? Also what aircraft were used? I'm aware of Mustang and Spitfires being lucky against the Swallow but were there other types aswell?

Shay

I did some research while in grad school on this topic in the 1980s. I was trying to ascertain exactly how many Me 262s were shot down by allied fighters. Second, which allied fighter aircraft was the most successful against the German jets? And third, which allied unit was the most successful in downing the Me-262?
My research revealed that approximately 177 Me 262s were claimed and confirmed destroyed by allied fighter aircraft during the war. This number dose not include jets downed by bomber gunners or other means. Also, this number does not include ground kills or probables listed against the German jets. Also, most importantly, this number does not include any other German jets such as the Arado Ar-234.
The answer to the second question was no surprise, the P-51 Mustang, all versions
(P-51D, F-6, and Mustang III), was the most successful allied aircraft used against the Swallow. The Mustang claimed destroyed 133.5 Me-262 Swallows during WW2.
Now to the most successful allied fighter unit in Europe is probably no surprise either. According to my research it was the 357th FG of the 8TH AF, USAAF, a Mustang fighter group, which claimed 20.5 Me-262 kills.
The 55th FG/ 8th AF, USAAF came in second with 18 Me 262 kills (all P-51 claims).
Of course some of my data may be out of date, but this would be a good place to begin your research.
Cheers
Bill

[Invader26]

My late father-in-law's unit, the 483rd Bomb Group....


"We are all aware of tragic missions like Memmingen, where we lost 14 of 26 aircraft due to an ambush by over 200 German fighter aircraft without any of our own fighter support. Suffice to say we shot down 53 German fighters that day and claimed another 25 probables. We lost six of 28 B-17's over Ruhland on one mission due to an attack by large force of ME 262 jets. In all, 12 were lost over Vienna during those 22 missions there.

"Of the original 646 crew members sent to Italy in March 1944, 38.8 percent were either killed in action or missing in action. By way of recap, a total of 760 crew members were shot down. Of the 760, 214 were killed in action, 315 became POW's, and 231 evaded capture and returned to duty.

"We lost 66 B-17's in actual combat, two others ditched while on combat missions, and another 13 got back to base but were too damaged for further use, for a total of 81. At any given time we had about 70 aircraft in the group, the majority of them in need of maintenance and /or combat damage repair. We normally flew 28 aircraft on each combat mission-- and after damage on a mission over the rough targets we were always hard-pressed to produce 28 in flyable condition.

"A special word here about our ground support, which was recognized as the finest in the 15th Air F`orce. Our aircraft in commission rate was the highest. Flight crews had the greatest trust and confidence in the around-the-clock performance of our maintenance, armament, ordinance, communications, supply and munitions echelons, which directly affected our flight safety and effectiveness. As a result, a strong camaraderie developed between fight crews and support personnel, which prevails today in many close friendships.

"This did not escape the notice of General Ira Eaker, commander of the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces. In the early fall of 1944 he released a special commendation to Gen. Twining, commander, 15th Air Force. Gen. Eaker said he 'noticed with great satisfaction the high rate of aircraft in commission during a recent high-volume effort against the enemy during successive days. This showed superior organization, particularly strong on the administrative and maintenance sides.' He asked Gen. Twining that his commendation 'be expressed particularly to the hard-working engineering staff and maintenance crews so that they would know how much he valued and applauded their effort.'

"The 483rd received plenty of battle awards. There were two outstanding unit citations -- one for performance on the Memmingen mission of July 18, 1944, and the other for the mission against the tank works in Berlin on March 24, 1945. Then battle stars were awarded for our participation in 10 ground/air campaigns during our stay in Italy. Our flight crews earned their share of Distinguished Service Crosses, Silver Stars, Distinguished Flying Crosses and Air Medals. One of our crews was the most-decorated in Air Force history: For a single mission all 10 received Silver Stars and four who were wounded also received the Purple Heart. (Editor's note: See the Goesling crew history.)

"More than a few combat records were broken: Most enemy aircraft destroyed by one crew on one mission: 13; most ME 262 jets destroyed by one group in entire war: seven; most German ME-262 jets destroyed by one crew on one mission; three; by one gunner on one mission: two. We even claim the record for the most holes in a B-17 after one mission: 30,748. I am surprised the 53 aircraft shot down at Memmingen is not a record-breaker. So much for our combat performance."

[old iron]

Two stats in the last paragraph particularly deserve more information.

13 kills by one bomber plane in one mission? Considering the amount of overclaiming, especially by bomber crews, how much confidence can we place on this claim? Has there been any cross-checking of claims against German losses for that day? There has been considerable work done evaluating Hans-Joachim Marseille's claim of 17 kills in one day (3 sorties) in North Africa, with the claims generally validated; surely someone has followed up on this bomber claim.

30,748 holes in a returning B-17? How big were these holes and how were they counted? Is there some documentation that supports this claim?

[Django]

Bill, what is a Mustang III?

[Jim W]

Mustang III = P51B/C in RAF use

[billtate]

The Mustang III was the designation for a NA P-51B & C equipped with a Packard license built Rolls Royce Merlin V-1650. They were modified in the UK with a bulged Spitfire-type sliding canopy (Malcolm hood) and other English items. But they were very similar to the P-51B and P-51C of the USAAF, as already stated. Two Polish squadrons operating with the RAF (No. 306 Squadron and No. 309 Squadron) claimed 4 Me 262s on 9 April, 1945.