Warbird Information Exchange

Lockheed Electra Folks:

The latest issue of Flypast Mag/ July- 2005 has an interesting clip about a poss Electra found by Australians patrols c. 1945. Plz Ck http://www.electranewbritain.com.

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FAH619®

Hi,

Thanks for posting the link. Are they even considering that this may be associated with Amelia Earhart ? I ask because of the background art on the website link. If it is, or rather could be associated with her...this find could be huge ! But then again, I admit that I do not know alot about the disappearance story itself.

Paul

Paul:

The website itself considers a connection to Amelia Earhart Lockheed 10 lost somewhere in the S. Pacific circa July 1937. However, after many expeditions to the area no hard evidence of a wreck has been found. The search is also very expensive to afford for just one man and friends.

The mystery here is what kind of aircraft did the Australian patrol run into c. 1945?

Plz ck http://www.tighar.org for specific/further details on this mystery. A/E Buff/FAH 619

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FAH619®

Yes, there is speculation that this is the Earhart Electra. The guy doing the research is a british born australian, and he supposedly has the original 1945 map which a British patrol used when they came across the wreckage of an Electra. In the margins of the map, with reference to the electra, was a short description of the wreck which included the engine type, and a number which just happens to coincide with the makers number of the aircraft which Earhart was flying... so it's a pretty tangible link. The guy with the map is trying to raise the funds to go and check out the area for the Electra. It's a pretty interesting story!

Cheers,
Richard

I'm sure R.G. and TIGHAR will get right over there and validate it !!!!

RicKH:

Mr. David Billings the Australian researcher's theory is that Amelia Earhart Lockheed 10E made a 180 turn at some point. Physical and mental exhaustion could have led to some serious navegational errors making it impossible for them to find Howland island on time.

Plan "B" for Amelia Earhart was to return to the Gilbert Islands but then they were also other possibilities...other islands.A/E Buff/FAH619

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FAH619®

.edit

FAH,

If this could prove some tangible link as you say, then the question, I think at least, is why has it taken so long for this tidbit of information to come forward. Although not extremely knowledgeable myself, other than knowing and hearing of the TIGHAR expeditions, this would seem to be perhaps a fair sized break. Wouldn't it ??

Paul

Paul:

It all began in 1990s by accident! Ck your PM. A/E Buff/FAH619

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FAH619®

I have read the site with interest, the evidence seems convincing, the logic is compelling.

Earhart is known to have flown past the general area on her last flight, the description of a civil aircraft - no military markings of camouflage indicated, and obivious level of jungle regrowth by 1945, and metal fuselage limits the choices of aircraft from the various types known to have operated there.

The most significant reliance of fact is the details of the engine mount tag identifying a P&W SH1 Wasp this "fact" limits the choices significantly.

A recently privately published book in Australia by Robery Kelly has thoroughly researched both the civil and WW2 Military transport operations in the SWPA.(Excellent Book!!)

Rabaul was an important pre-war airport in the PNG area, and there were many Australian pre-war aircraft operating in PNG itself and New Britain due to the gold rush of the 1930's, there were 47 Australian registered aircraft in 1939.

The majority of these types were "European" wooden bi-planes (fox moths, Dragons) or monoplane Fokker FVII's or metal Junkers W34 or Junkers G31, and 3x Ford Trimotors, some of these were re-engined with Wasps for the high altitude and weight lifting required for the gold dredging equipment.

(As a measure of the scale of "airlifts" required by the jungle environment it is recorded that 3947 tons of supplies and equipment were moved in 1932, compared with the combined air transport services of the UK, France and the US carried only 2670 tons of freight in the same period)


The "Buy" British policies of Australia, the cost of "Buying" outside the pound stirling trading block (and the efforts of the society of British Aircraft Manufacturers) all acted to serverly limit the introduction of US made aircraft.

Despite this 2x Lockheed 10's, and 5x Lockheed 14's were operating in and around PNG, these are all accounted for and are not crashed on New Britain.

The Book also identifies aircraft operated by "KLM" & "KNILM" in the adjoining Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) here there WERE many more US Aircraft, DC2's, DC3's and Lockheeds, although these operated "internally" (PNG and New Britain were "Australian territory") or back to Europe and appear not to usually link to Rabaul?

The Invading Japanese caused many of these "KLM" aircraft to escape to Australia, along with US owned aircraft from the Phillipines including a number Beech 18's

None of the above "fleeing aircraft" are recorded as crashing in Rabaul.

The site is correct to then record the RAAF Wirraways which defended Rabaul as it itself was invaded as being the only other likely source of a P&W Wasp, but these were steel tube fuselages and the cockpit would have been directly behind the engine and either totally destroyed or recognisable as the remains of canopies seats etc, the wings would have been camoflauged and there would not have been a second engine.

Japanese "metal/twin engined" airicraft such as Hickory, Dinah would have certainly operated from Rabual but and perhaps in Natural metal finish, but and the engine may well have resembled P&W wasps but not be tagged as such??

The whole sotry sounds very plausable, it would need to be an elaborate fabrication to build such compelling clues.

While that could have been done in more resent times, the site suggests this incident is well remembered by the veterans of the Australian Army unit that was involved, (this should be easy to independantly verify) and the ability to create these clues from "Australia" back in the early 1950's (unless already very knowledgeable about aircraft and Earhart's Lockheed) would have been virtually impossible, (the quality of informative aircraft books and magazines is certainly much improved over what was available in Australia pre 1970) and "GOOGLE" was not available to anyone (other than someone tickling a baby!.)

So I am convinced by arguments put forward on the site, and think its worth further detailed site visits.

Mark Pilkington

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20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"

Mark:
Tks for the extra info/data. The additional info about the bare metal Japanese aircraft Hickory, Dinah is worth further research in Google.

TIGHAR has offered us through the years some pretty interesting theories about the Electra 10E and the poss location (former Gardner Island) but nothing conclusive/hard type evidence has ever surfaced about Engine Serial Numbers/ Engine ID plates. Mr. Billings simply offers another point of view to an old mystery.

Mr. Billings has made 9 trips to the area and spent some $35000 of his own savings to investigate this wreckage. His data is worth pursuing to prove/disapprove just what kind of wreckage that is or what kind of ID plates the fuselage may still have. (They should be still in place).

Personally, He has done a lot of homework and I hope that he finds that wreckage silently waiting to be discovered!

If only NASA would lend us a hand with the U-2 for a couple of passes with the Magnetometer survey shots! -) A/E Buff FAH619

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FAH 619

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FAH619®

What a fascinating possibility. Thanks for posting that, FAH619. Seems too coincidental not to have some real merit. I hope funds can be secured to locate it.

I hate to dissapoint but this is a very old story. Approximately ten plus years ago the RAAF Museum at Point Cook launched an expidition to New Briatain to find said aeroplane using the same information.

The expedition drew a complete blank and the only thing notable about the whole trip was they used a DC3 to get there.

Personally I wish this was true but probability remains low.

Yep and ignores the fact that Amelia's radio signals recieved by Itasca were at their strongest when her last message was recieved, experts believe she was within 50 miles of Howland.

John

Radio signal strengths can be greatly affected by atmospheric conditions making them far stronger or far weaker against normal reception for the same distance, the most compelling evidence in the New Britain argument is the engine tag, and although it does not exist, it is defined by the markings recorded on the map.

Either it is an elaborate hoax, developed many years ago by a very well informated/researched person within the the veterans of the army unit, or it is true.

If it is true it is difficult to find another aircraft type that would yield the same stamping on the tag, and given her flight path passes in the area, and the wreckage is tewin engined, metal fuselage, apparantly civilian and overgrown by 1945, it cannot simply be discounted by the strength of a radio signal.

Unfortunately the only way to really prove its existance is to find this wreckage on New Britain, (or find Earheart's lockheed somewhere else), there would appear to be teams prepared to do both, why not let them do it??

Again the strength of the stories of the veterans in the unit could easily be explored as to how far back in re-unions has this story , map and tag inscription been common knowledge, the further you go back in time the harder it would be to fabricate the tag details without some particular aviation knowledge.

The authenticity of the map and the tag inscription on it is the key to proving something was there, or disprooving the event as a fabricated hoax.

I am pleased there has been further explorations, even by the RAAF Museum, but it is very hard to proove a negative, i.e. not finding it in those conditions does not really proove its not there.

The equation to the riddle is simple = If the tag? and the wreck? are real? - what else can it be??

I am still convinced at this time, by the proposition so far made by the site.


regards

Mark Pilkington

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20th Century - The Age of Manned Flight
"from Wrights to Armstrong in 66 years -WOW!"