Warbird Information Exchange

PLOESTI!!

Was it worth it, or a debacle that got a lot of good people killed? I tend to believe the latter, but I certainly hold the men who flew that mission in high esteem.

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Dave

Certainly a remarkable, brave effort.

However I was surprised to discover a couple of years ago while reading about it, like many precision-strategic raids, it failed to achieve the objective. Something that is overlooked or downplayed in most aviation history accounts, in favour of carrying forward the original objective in the plan as though it was actuality. The Dam Busters raid is somewhat comparable, both in profile, cost and bravery, and ultimate negligible result in the original objective (although, to be fair it had a number of unexpected and tangential benefits). War is indeed heII, it's also incredibly inefficient and wasteful. None of that is to criticise those that conceived either plan, because IMHO, they were worthy of the attempt - the enemy proved more resilient in their infrastructure than was believed possible - another common military error.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... ave#Result

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Operation Tidalwave: 177 aircraft involved
Operation Chastise: 19 aircraft involved

Operation Tidalwave: 53 aircraft, 660 aircrew lost
Operation Chastise: 7 aircraft, 53 lost


Certainly comparable in bravery, James.

But 'somewhat comparable in cost'? Back to math class with you.

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It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

Both sides in every conflict try to implement the one, big overhand blow operation that will make the opposition say 'GEEZZZZ!' Coventry, Dresden-Zeppelin attacks, 'Shock and Awe' each met with compromised results and less that total capitulation by those being subjected to the attack. About the only 'OH YEAH? top this' that worked near to it's objective were the atomic attacks on Japan, but had they failed WW2 could have gone on into 1946 or 47 with really gruesome results from ground combat.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Instead of gettting busted, like he certainly deserved, K.K. Compton was given a medal. He should have been busted and relieved of command. Gen. Ent was not even supposed to go on the mission. Killer Kane flew the mission as briefed, but he never rose above colonel during the war. I don't think Compton led another mission during the war.

There was a really good thread on army air forces dot com that discussed this mission and the aftermath. WWII Magazine published a story several years ago that suggested that one of the vets of this mission did not want to go to the reunion that was planned. He said he did not want to go to the reunion and help perpetuate the myth that they did a good job. He said that he would keep his "bad thoughts" to himself and that he knew who the villians were.

TM

Here is the link to the army air forces dot com thread:

http://forum.armyairforces.com/Ploesti- ... 99748.aspx



TM

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"Welcome back Mr. Lasky."

Roughly 30% of Tidalwave aircraft were lost, while 37% of Chastise were lost.

Today is also the anniversary of the Army Signal Corps agreeing to buy some of them infernal airyplain things in 1907 and Harriet Quimby becoming the first licensed female pilot in the U.S.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Not what I said, you are cherrypicking. The 'somewhat' was an emphasised modifier, and applied to four (comparison) factors, not one.

The actual cost I was thinking of was strategic. The loss rate led both the the USAAF and RAF's Bomber Command to be wary of such precision, low level and high-propaganda raids in future, as b29flteng's kindly pointed out, as a percentage loss of dispatched force they were both unsustainable.

The Inspector's point is a good one, more worthy of consideration that trying to flaw a headline level comparison.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Thanks for that link, Tony. Very interesting.

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Dave

How dare you, who do you think you are? I've been a long time visiter to this site and this is the first time I have ever been offended by anyone ever. What gives you the right to think you know about the cost of the ploesti raids. You have never been in harms way. My grandfather died at the command of a B-24 in a ploesti mission. You DO need to go back to school. Your ego is larger than your class ... Shame on you!

To Ploesti,

Fisrt off, let me be the first to say that I'm quite certain that all of us here honor your grandfather's service and your family's sacrifice.

My question is this, however...having read and reread the post you quoted, I don't see what there was that offended you so strongly. The losses and percentages referred to were certainly beyond the control of the flight crews, and would seem to reflect bravery of the crews, rather than anything negative. If you could explain what offended you, I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, I'd respectfully suggest that there are MANY veterans of all branches of service represented here, so you don't really have any idea whether the poster has been in harm's way or not.

It might be better not to make assumptions regarding anyone's service background for that reason, and I say that with all due respect to you.

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"Anyway, the throat feels a bit rough...the legs have gone...but I'm still able to chant, so let's get going."

Joe Strummer, 1999

My guess would be that if the loss is a personal one to see someone reduce that
loss to a simple math equation it would become very offensive!
When people recount the great Marine Corp triumph that was the advance in the other
direction through the frozen hell of the Chosin Reservoir I just remember my cousin who
died there (and is still there somewhere) while trying to save wounded Marines. I don't
feel much like high fiving anyone over that heroic campaign.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Yes sorry, I have a bit of emotion about 1943. We lost a great person. Sorry for the rant. Done with the posts. Back to watching.

Polesti,
Thanks for the posts - I'm sure we can all see where you are coming from, and let me say I quite understand that your loss makes this a raw topic. I'm sorry my post touched a nerve, that was not the intent, and I appreciate your later post to clarify that. (It is easy to forget that war includes a huge amount of suffering that can resonate down the generations, and that is on a personal level more important than disconnected analysis of strategy, tactics and weaponry.)

I would point out that the first thing I said on the matter in this thread was to acknowledge the bravery of the operation, in planning and the huge cost of carrying it out. That was not a casual decision, but putting the point front and centre to respond to ZeamerB17's original question afterwards.

Please feel free to return and participate on WIX more fully - while it is interesting to lurk, what makes it worthwhile is the contributions from as many of us with something worth listening to to say. I'm sure we would be pleased to hear the story of your grandfather's service if you were prepared to share it with us. Recounting that, if you feel appropriate, (perhaps in a new thread) would be one way of remembering his unfortunate sacrifice.

Regards,

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James K

"Switch on the underwater landing lights"
Emilio Largo, Thunderball.

www.VintageAeroWriter.com

Double post.