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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:59 pm 
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I was reading two different magazines today and I had two questions pop into my head from the articles.

One was an article about the Vought Kingfisher and it had a color photo of one on a battleships catapult.
Next to the Kingfisher are about twenty sailors with "RED" dixie cup hats on. I've never seen the red hats before. What did that color represent on a battleship?

The second question I have is during Lysander agent drops/pick-ups, they mentioned the "L-shaped, three hand torch landing system" that could only be seen in one direction. Does anyone have a photo of what these hand torches looked like? Were they special made or just regular torches with in field modifications?
Thanks.
Jerry

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:19 pm 
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Since I happen to work aboard a battleship and we just
happen to have a Kingfisher I'd sure like to see the pic.
Can you scan it and post it? Is the ship in the pic
identified? First time I've heard of red dixie cups. I
know it was common in WWII to dye them with either
coffee or blue dye.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Is this the photo?

Labeled USS Missouri abandon ship drills, 1944.

Interesting...not that I'm any kind of battleship scholar...but interesting


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:07 pm 
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That's the Pic Zane! Thanks for posting it!

I wonder if the color relates to the same "Red" flight deck helmets worn on a carrier?
Jerry

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:42 am 
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Jerry O'Neill wrote:
The second question I have is during Lysander agent drops/pick-ups, they mentioned the "L-shaped, three hand torch landing system" that could only be seen in one direction. Does anyone have a photo of what these hand torches looked like? Were they special made or just regular torches with in field modifications?

Hi Jerry. No pics, but they were a standard electric battery torch [US flashlight]. Training was undertaken in the UK, and the SOE and SIS operatives were taught how to choose and prepare a field. A normal reception committee would use three or more people, but it was possible to do with one, with the butt end of the torches screwed into the ground. All operations were undertaken on moon-lit nights, so during the full moon quarter, and that meant there would normally be a degree of ambient light.

The other question on the torches would be if they were European or British makes - the latter being difficult to explain if an agent was searched by the Germans, so I presume they would be European or fake European types.

Captain W.E. Johns, the author of children's aviation hero 'Biggles' describes the process, and IIRC, it pre-dates in his accounts to before W.W.II; he was a DH-4 pilot in 55 Squadron in 1918, so probably knew of it from the Great War.

There's a demonstration of the landing process, by two real SOE agents "acting" their role in the film on the SOE 'Now It Can Be Told' featuring the last real Special Duties Lysander (now in the RAF Museum in Army co-op colours, strangely).

HTH!

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:17 am 
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My guess is someone put his red undies in the "whites" wash on laundry day. :D

I never knew those hats were called Dixie Cups. When I was in the Air Force a dixie was a tin thing you ate out of when on a field exercise, in this country anyway.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:34 am 
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Dixie means a personal or communal rations 'bowl' (canteen, itself a borrow word) across the Commonwealth's English, and a 'Dixie Cup' is a trade name paper water cup in the US; I suspect the 'Dixie caps' may be a visual pun on the cup, but could be something to do with the Southern US States nicknames; one for our US contributors? I'd guess that the cup came from the canteen can. Never managed to nail that one down.

Its funny when you start tracing words back. A (electrical) 'battery' and the archaic / French 'Pile' for the same thing, actually mean the same thing, 'battery' for a grouping of things into a unit, familiar to anyone who knows their artillery, 'pile' for the 'pile' of plates that the name 'battery' of plates in a jar originally came from.

Better explained here, and there's Benji Franklin AGAIN!
Quote:
Strictly, a battery is a collection of multiple electrochemical cells, but in popular usage battery often refers to a single cell.[1] For example, a 1.5-volt AAA battery is a single 1.5-volt cell, and a 9-volt battery has six 1.5-volt cells in series. The first electrochemical cell was developed by the Italian physicist Alessandro Volta in 1792, and in 1800 he invented the first battery, a "pile" of many cells in series.[4]

The usage of "battery" to describe electrical devices dates to Benjamin Franklin, who in 1748 described multiple Leyden jars (early electrical capacitors) by analogy to a battery of cannons.[5] Thus Franklin's usage to describe multiple Leyden jars predated Volta's use of multiple galvanic cells.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%2 ... 29#History

Of course there's torch and flashlight...

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:39 am 
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Several books make reference to ships captains requiring Dixie Cups be dyed different colors. The only one I could readily find was the Osprey book about the USN in WW2. Their little blurb speficially cited "red for ordnance".


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:07 am 
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L2Driver wrote:
Their little blurb speficially cited "red for ordnance".

I know on Royal Navy Cruisers and Battleships, 'Torps' the torpedo officer was responsible for the Walrus' catapult.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:49 am 
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In the "black-shoe" Navy (surface Navy) red would designate firemen (sailors who work in the engine room) other wise known as the "black gang". I doubt it was for Aviation Ordnance as that rate is mostly assigned to aircraft carriers. The red for ordnance in the Osprey book was referring to the red shirts on a carrier flight decks not a surface combatant. I should think a battleship would not need twenty plus AOs to load ordnance on four OS2U-3s.
It is most likely that the sailors on night watch have coffee, ketchup, whatever, dyed "Dixie Cups." The hats may have faded over time at sea and salt water washes.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:39 pm 
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The men wearing the red dyed "Dixie cups" in the photo, which was taken on the USS Missouri, are ment to distinguish them from the rest of the ships crew as being part of the small air group assigned to the ship.

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