Warbird Information Exchange

The Duxford (formerly "Mary Alice") thread got me thinking about the progress being made on the Memphis Belle in Dayton. I am an admitted rivet counter, it's true. To me, one of the most important things to finish off a great mechanical restoration is getting the paint right. The details in a Mustang like "Happy Jack's Go Buggy" are, to me, what puts it far over the top; stencils, fonts, paint shades, flat tones, etc. I see no reason why the Belle can't be done as well and set a new standard for re-creation authenticity.

The Duxford discussion on having mannequins appear to contemplate nose art got me thinking about the Belle. Somehow, I knew, but forgot, that Tony Starcer was the Belle's original artist. With something like 130 B-17s to his credit, what a legacy! Anyway, I was simply going to add to an existing thread, but I couldn't find one that truly stayed on topic.

Would ya'll be interested in creating a factual, objective thread simply to point out unique markings or the like as if we were directly contributing to the restoration team?

I'm not a Belle historian, don't claim to be, but I'll start off with a few observations and let the experts take over.

This shot appears to be a color still from the Wyler movie:








So, I notice there's a mod/sensor added where the serial stencil is, what was that?
Did Starcer sign his name adjacent to the art?
I see the prop blade info is stenciled perpendicular to the blade
The OD camo on the cowls swoops down around the whole front of the cowl ring
The Belle's shoe is outlined in a darker color on both sides
Prop hubs are black
What of the darker camo splotches seen on her fuselage?
What markings/names were added after her last mission that don't need to be replicated in the restoration?
How tough will it be to recreate the Belle's nose blister & socket guns?

I'm a novice ... you guys take over.

Ken

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

Well, I am lucky to have Harry Friedman as a friend. He is a wealth of knowledge on the Belle as he was part of the crew that kept the Belle up over the years in Memphis. I will say that the NMUSAF plans a display that will cover her combat days, as well as the legacy of the Memphis Belle Memorial Association and their story. While I think that the plane is best preserved and best served at the NMUSAF, it would be foolish not to give credit to the MBMA for saving it from the scrappers. Folks like Frank Donofrio and the others that fought long and hard for her.
We also should take note of what happens when our history doesn't get the support it should. It was not through the fault of the MBMA, or the dedicated volunteers that the plane moved. You really also can't blame Dayton for wanting it in a building. IT was the complete lack of support from Memphis.
As for markings, it is really complex. Her markings changed on several occasions.
The pin up her self was painted in two different types of paint as well. I believe her skin was in one type, and the bathing suit in another.
I think they have a new nose piece already made. Same with the gun brackets for the nose.
The wheel covers with that design on them was always rumored to be red on both sides. But one side was blue. I think opposite of the color dress.

The green splotches were an attempt to further camo the planes. Group commanders were given the choice as to whether or not to apply that. Stanley Wray felt that it was a good idea.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

The finished product is going to be awesome I think.

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Ain't no sunshine when she's gone!

The guide on the "Behind the Scenes" tour has said they plan to paint the Belle as she appeared on her 23rd mission, as that is the best documented (photographically.) Most of the documentary footage was filmed around then. Interestingly, the special anniversary DVD includes a bunch of outtakes, showing that there were multiple takes of the supposedly "candid" scenes, including the painting of the final bomb mission mark, which was wiped off and repainted for the cameras several times.

As for the Olive Drab curving down around the lips of the cowls, that was standard factory finish on all camouflaged B-17s (something the supposedly "most accurate restoration ever" Boeing Bee missed.) The "Movie Belle" has the entire cowls painted OD..I'm assuming it's a compromise to allow panels to be switched around/replaced/touched up without giving her a patchwork appearance.

Many (most) Olive Drab aircraft in WWII had various blotches of Medium Green added in the field, and in some cases before leaving the States. The blotches were usually concentrated along the edges of the flying surfaces in an effort to break up the outline of the aircraft. The were usually lighter than the surrounding OD when applied, but OD faded so quickly the blotches usually ended up darker, which kind of had the opposite effect.

The Belle should be a real stunner when finished, and it appears they're making every effort to get the paint right. It never ceases to amaze me how museums put countless years/man-hours into a restoration only to give it a totally bogus paint job <cough PB2Y cough>.

SN

A great deal will rest upon which film stock the Wyler documentary was shot on as different movie film recorded the same item differently from anothers supplier. If Warners say used mostly KODAK film stock then the prop department knew that any 'blood' in the upcoming picture had to be mixed to a color card so it didn't look like ketchup or brown paint, old, cheaply done color films used whatever they could wrangle from a prop department so the 'blood' from a vampire might look like thin steak sauce because the mixology was wrong for the filmstock used. so some might be disappointed when they see the real thing and the 'paint is wrong' setting off yet another paintball fight here.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Hehe..I like that! And that's coming from a self-admitted Paint Nazi!

SWN

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-Bill
B-17E 41-2595 "Desert Rat" Restoration Team

He arrived with the 91st bomb group in late 1942. He started out painting group insignias, and code letters. He is on record in several interviews as claiming the Belle as one of his. He claimed his first three attempts at nose art were "Dame Satan", "Careful Virgin", and 'Memphis Belle".

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Director

I find the fresh paint around the nose art area, above and behind the two sides where it has "Memphis Belle' spelled out, interesting and something I've yet to see on a model or painting of the Belle. It does look as though it's there on your first photo of the left side, and I don't think it's camo blotches.
Jerry

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"Always remember that, when you enter the ocean or the forest, you are no longer at the top of the food chain."

The freshened paint Jerry mentions is present in all the photos here, including the color one, even though it is hardest to pick out there. If I were in charge of the restoration, I'd try my best to duplicate it. As for the cowl rings & dark green splotches, I'd do my best to recreate them as well ... not because they were "standard", but using photos, I'd simply try to replicate those exactly as they were on the Belle, as that's what matters most; recreating this single airframe.

The mention of paint shades is appropriate for this thread. I know there were different vendors and sub contractors and fading - some of which may be misrepresented even in color photos, due to aging. I hope they do their best to match the colors so it looks as correct as is possible. I know close ups of the DF call letters clearly show they were hand painted ... I hope they replicate that effect as well (by hand).

Ken

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

Speaking of OD, what is the proper shade for Belle? Thinking of Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby & 909 then comparing them to the OD seen on the newly finished P-47 SNAFU ... which will be correct for Belle?

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"Take care of the little things and the big things will take care of themselves."

OD varied considerably between manufacturers when fresh, and once it started fading it could end up anything from light green to peanut butter brown to a purplish hue. I think the shades on "Nine-Oh-Nine" and "Shoo Shoo Shoo Baby" are relatively close to what the Belle should be. As for P-47s, they often look quite dark and almost semi-gloss in period photos. I've heard stories that fighters were sometimes waxed..that would make the paint appear darker and shinier, by I don't know if it was common practice on Thunderbolts.

SN

Steve, by now you should know me well enough to understand that if I stir the pot, I use a 250 H.P. outboard motor
And the invasion stripes on the NMUSAF aircraft are all hand painted and not a laser laid straight line in sight, they're straight but not perfect showcar style, you can easily see the brush strokes on them.

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Don't make me go get my flying monkeys-

Speaking of the Memphis Belle, any updates on the restoration? Haven't seen any interior pictures in awhile...

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

Under that darker patch above the name, I can only assume it used to say, "The Movie."

-Tim

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Keep 'em Flying.