Could a P-51 really do this?

J. Thompson · **Joined:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:56 pm **Posts:** 51

Good-day,
Flight Simulator is a very profitable hobby of mine, and I most enjoy the products that allow for the most realistic representations of Warbirds.

One well-known company in the Flight Simulator community, is A2A Simulations. They claim to be the king of the hill, in regards to realism. However, I'm very confident that this would never be possible in the real world.. Such control over the tail, at a stand still.... see video:

Would love feedback from fellow Warbird pilots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GVf4QXXilM

- Joseph

RyanShort1 · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:15 am

It can be done in a Cub... don't know that I'd want to play with it in a real P-51, but I'm sure one could if one wanted to.

Taigh Ramey · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:55 am

Yes it's possible.

I remember going to air shows When I was young watching a guy in the CAF's B-17 Sentimental Journey do this at the Reno air races. The story was that the B-17's tail wheel was a weak spot so he would ride the brakes with power and forward elevator and would bring the aircraft to a stop on roll out after landing with the tail up in a level attitude and then lower the tail to the ground. I was in awe. I wanted to try this.

I saw the same guy back up Sentimantal Journey at Madera into a parking place by using power on number 1 and left brake which would swing the tail back and to the left. Then he would use power on number 4 and right brake to bring the tail back and to the right. He would alternate this and back up a B-17. Cool to watch but I can't imagine anyone doing this today.

If I'm not mistaken I think he was the guy who died with Jim Maloney in the PT-22. Two great pilots.

I want back and tried to raise the tail thing in a Super Decathalon at San Jose. Brakes on, power up, and forward elevator to fly the tail off the ground. Of course the worry was nosing the aircraft over while goofing off like this. There are three things that will lower the nose quickly any one will do it. Release brakes, reduce elevator or reduce power. You sure don't want to slam the tail down either so you have to be very careful and vigilant.

I practiced in the run up area raising the tail a little at first and worked it higher and higher. Then I would raise the tail while in position for takeoff and then keep the tail up throughout the takeoff roll. Next was keeping it up at the end of the landing roll. Eventually I was making turns with the tail up too being very wary of the winds. It would be easy to screw up and it would be very expensive to say the least.

Warbirds have the capacity to do this trick because of the high power available. I would venture to say that most of them would be capable of this but the question is why risk it? It is purely in the category of showing off. An air show act maybe.

I remember when we were doing carrier qualifications at NAS Alameda for the Warbird launch off of the USS Carl Vinson back in 1995. The TBM had trouble powering up above 2000 rpm as I recall without it wanting to nose over with full back elevator and brakes on. I am not an Avenger pilot so this is hearsay but I watched that TBM nose over and catch the prop in the concrete runway. The Launch Officer was scrambling to keep from being pelted with flying runway schrapnel.

I'm not a Mustang pilot either but I would bet that it's possible as it would be with any other fighter. Doable but not smart. What's a 24D50 for a P-51 worth these days? $70k?

Robbie Stuart · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:05 am

Taigh Ramey wrote:

Yes it's possible.

I remember going to air shows When I was young watching a guy in the CAF's B-17 Sentimental Journey do this at the Reno air races. The story was that the B-17's tail wheel was a weak spot so he would ride the brakes with power and forward elevator and would bring the aircraft to a stop on roll out after landing with the tail up in a level attitude and then lower the tail to the ground. I was in awe. I wanted to try this.

I saw the same guy back up Sentimantal Journey at Madera into a parking place by using power on number 1 and left brake which would swing the tail back and to the left. Then he would use power on number 4 and right brake to bring the tail back and to the right. He would alternate this and back up a B-17. Cool to watch but I can't imagine anyone doing this today.

If I'm not mistaken I think he was the guy who died with Jim Maloney in the PT-22. Two great pilots.

I want back and tried to raise the tail thing in a Super Decathalon at San Jose. Brakes on, power up, and forward elevator to fly the tail off the ground. Of course the worry was nosing the aircraft over while goofing off like this. There are three things that will lower the nose quickly any one will do it. Release brakes, reduce elevator or reduce power. You sure don't want to slam the tail down either so you have to be very careful and vigilant.

I practiced in the run up area raising the tail a little at first and worked it higher and higher. Then I would raise the tail while in position for takeoff and then keep the tail up throughout the takeoff roll. Next was keeping it up at the end of the landing roll. Eventually I was making turns with the tail up too being very wary of the winds. It would be easy to screw up and it would be very expensive to say the least.

Warbirds have the capacity to do this trick because of the high power available. I would venture to say that most of them would be capable of this but the question is why risk it? It is purely in the category of showing off. An air show act maybe.

I remember when we were doing carrier qualifications at NAS Alameda for the Warbird launch off of the USS Carl Vinson back in 1995. The TBM had trouble powering up above 2000 rpm as I recall without it wanting to nose over with full back elevator and brakes on. I am not an Avenger pilot so this is hearsay but I watched that TBM nose over and catch the prop in the concrete runway. The Launch Officer was scrambling to keep from being pelted with flying runway schrapnel.

I'm not a Mustang pilot either but I would bet that it's possible as it would be with any other fighter. Doable but not smart. What's a 24D50 for a P-51 worth these days? $70k?

Taigh, the pilot you are referring to is the late Jim Orton. Jim used to fly our B-23 some, he was very talented. He was pretty good at backing a B-17 up too.

Robbie

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:12 am

That was Jim Orton, who was the chief pilot of Sentimental Journey, I have a 8mm movie of him waving to the crowd with the tail of the 17. I was there the day he and Jim Malone went down in Orton's PT-22, Steve Hinton was in the other PT-22 on the flight.

CAPFlyer · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:30 am

As for the flight model, there's a factor at work here that may make it possible in flightsim with more authority than in the real world which A2A can't really do anything about and have thus stated that their aircraft are accurate FLIGHT models, not accurate GROUND models because they can't change the way FSX handles the ground.

Mo Flight Simulator currently has a true "ground handling model". The simulators actually think the plane is flying at all times, no matter what the speed or altitude. This is why the weathervaning effect is so horribly wrong on 99% of aircraft in the sims and why you require an unrealistic amount of throttle to get the plane to taxi. There's nothing an addon producer can do to fully rectify this without affecting other areas of the flight model negatively. As such, most just live with it. Because there is no "ground mode" in the sims, other weird things start happening like creep with the brakes set and the wheels not turning and unrealistically powerful brakes when at a standstill that will allow the plane to simply skid along at full power instead of the brakes being overpowered.

Stoney · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 10:22 am

A SAAF T-6 did it in an air show video I saw years ago, taxing all the way to the runway out of parking

J. Thompson · **Joined:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:56 pm **Posts:** 51

Thanks for the swift reply fellas. Makes sense, and perhaps it's just not at all common. We see reports of spits nosing over all of the time. I suspect the CG is considerably farther forward on a Mk.IX for example. I've seen this nearly accomplished with a T-6.

- Joseph

Stephan Wilkinson · **Joined:** Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:23 am **Posts:** 699

A long time ago, I did an article for Flying Magazine about Ernie Gann and I retracing one of his old American Airlines routes, in a DC-3 that had been specially repainted for us in AA colors. It was, under the bright AA colors, a working cargo DC-3 out of Texas, flown up to us in New York by its weathered old chief pilot (solo, too). Well, Ernie and I flopped all over New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania in that thing all day long, trading seats. Ernie hadn't flown a DC-3 in decades, and I'd never flown one, though we got the job done, flew a photo mission with Russell Munson as well.

For the very last leg of the trip, after Ernie and I were finished with our "work," the Doug Racer's regular pilot took over the left seat and of course flew the thing as though he was married to it. I vividly remember when we landed at SWF, near where I live so that I could get off and go home, he never let that tailwheel touch the ground until we were parked. Rollout, turnoff, lengthy taxi, talking to tower and ground the whole time...he was basically saying, "You may be the famous Mr. Ernest K. Gann, but THIS is how you fly a C-47, my boy..."

rwdfresno · **Posted:** Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:15 pm

Taigh Ramey wrote:

I remember when we were doing carrier qualifications at NAS Alameda for the Warbird launch off of the USS Carl Vinson back in 1995. The TBM had trouble powering up above 2000 rpm as I recall without it wanting to nose over with full back elevator and brakes on. I am not an Avenger pilot so this is hearsay but I watched that TBM nose over and catch the prop in the concrete runway. The Launch Officer was scrambling to keep from being pelted with flying runway schrapnel.

Taigh,

I remember that as well. It left a nice gouge in the runway about as wide as my foot.

Ryan

J. Thompson · **Joined:** Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:56 pm **Posts:** 51

To sum this up, does anyone have an example of accidental nose-over during run-up, for a P-51? Wartime, or otherwise?

- Joseph

Matt Gunsch · **Posted:** Sat Jan 17, 2015 12:02 pm

Almost any taildragger can be stood on it's nose, that is why the stick is held back when you are doing a run up of the engine. Get enough air going over the tail and it will come up if the controls are not handled correctly.

You can even feel the effect in the nose dragger, pull the yoke back at run up and you will feel the nose raise.

Randy Wilson · **Posted:** Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:15 pm

I will provide no details but some years ago I was in a fighter flight in a Wildcat when the P-40 next to me got a prop strike during a run up due to the stick not being full back. I've also picked up the tail of a fighter with an unlockable tail wheel and turned it to get off an active runway. Stuff can happen. My 2 cents.

Randy

Dudley Henriques · **Posted:** Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:45 pm

Randy Wilson wrote:

I will provide no details but some years ago I was in a fighter flight in a Wildcat when the P-40 next to me got a prop strike during a run up due to the stick not being full back. I've also picked up the tail of a fighter with an unlockable tail wheel and turned it to get off an active runway. Stuff can happen. My 2 cents.

Randy

Just an opinion after following this thread for awhile;
Anyone doing a run up in a 51 without back stick shouldn't be in a Mustang at all. Even at 2300 you can raise the tail and risk a tip strike. At 40 inches a 51 has been known to jump main gear chocks.
We never did any full power checks without the tail being tied down and I can only remember doing a couple of those over time.
Dudley Henriques

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Could a P-51 really do this?

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