Oshkosh Awards & MG's?
Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:27 pm
I am doing research on aircraft MG's and would like to know which part or parts need replacing to make them deactivated or dummy. I have heard that if you replace the sideplates with aluminum sideplates that this renders them unusable as firing MG's, but always them to be displayed will all the internal parts. What do all the guys with Golden Wrench Mustangs and fighters do to have the realistic look?
Any thoughts/
Patrick
Any thoughts/
Patrick
Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:45 pm
Try IRAC, they make replica MG's, google it
Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:25 pm
Stoney,
Thanks for the info.
Patrick
Thanks for the info.
Patrick
Re: Oshkosh Awards & MG's?
Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:39 pm
For most machine guns using box type receivers (.30 and .50 cal Brownings for instance), the right sideplate IS the machine gun. A Plexiglas right sideplate that will allow a round to be chambered and fired is still a machine gun according to the BATFE, even if you think it will blow up upon firing.pilot06 wrote:I am doing research on aircraft MG's and would like to know which part or parts need replacing to make them deactivated or dummy.
Any dummy right sideplate you make must prohibit unmodified internal components from being installed.
The BATFE has been known to prosecute people possessing malfunctioning semi-auto rifles. Most of the regulations on this topic are somewhat nebulous. Do it wrong though and you risk a visit to club fed.
Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:01 pm
The BATFE is a scary and somewhat moraly corrupt agency IMO (not unlike the NHC, but I digress)! 
These are the same people who's brilliant deductive rationality brought you the "shoestring machinegun". Yes, believe it or not, under some circumstances the BATFE legally defines shoestrings, duct tape, and zip ties as machineguns. It can be completely legal to own a particular type of rifle, but if you are in possession of that rifle while conspicuously carring a shoestring with you, it could be grounds for felony arrest. Make sure you put a serial number on those sneakers and get a $200 tax stamp for them before you wear them out shooting!
I know, this logic ranks right up there with burning dozens of small children in order to save them from themselves, but that's another story all together. 
I guess my point would be to warn you, whatever you do, don't take any chances or dwell in any "gray areas" when dealing with BATFE related issues. If you choose a method of deactivating a certain machinegun, or come into possession of a machinegun that has been deactivated, make sure the method used to deactivate it is specifically in line with documented BATFE approval standards. If the circumstance is by any means questionable, you might request a letter from the BAFTE outlining their definition of legal deactivation to keep on file.
These guys are not the Post Office. Their very exsistence depends on filling an arrest quota, and that means making a fine art out of busting otherwise law abiding citizens on BS technical violations. If there's a chance you might be lingering anywhere near the line of illegality, they WILL coerce you across that line in order to make the bust - period. In their world, innocent ignorance of such things on your part gets you no more benefit of a doubt than an illegal narcotics dealer. They are not your friend by any means. Cover your butt.
Can you tell I'm a big BATFE fan?
These are the same people who's brilliant deductive rationality brought you the "shoestring machinegun". Yes, believe it or not, under some circumstances the BATFE legally defines shoestrings, duct tape, and zip ties as machineguns. It can be completely legal to own a particular type of rifle, but if you are in possession of that rifle while conspicuously carring a shoestring with you, it could be grounds for felony arrest. Make sure you put a serial number on those sneakers and get a $200 tax stamp for them before you wear them out shooting!
I know, this logic ranks right up there with burning dozens of small children in order to save them from themselves, but that's another story all together.
I guess my point would be to warn you, whatever you do, don't take any chances or dwell in any "gray areas" when dealing with BATFE related issues. If you choose a method of deactivating a certain machinegun, or come into possession of a machinegun that has been deactivated, make sure the method used to deactivate it is specifically in line with documented BATFE approval standards. If the circumstance is by any means questionable, you might request a letter from the BAFTE outlining their definition of legal deactivation to keep on file.
These guys are not the Post Office. Their very exsistence depends on filling an arrest quota, and that means making a fine art out of busting otherwise law abiding citizens on BS technical violations. If there's a chance you might be lingering anywhere near the line of illegality, they WILL coerce you across that line in order to make the bust - period. In their world, innocent ignorance of such things on your part gets you no more benefit of a doubt than an illegal narcotics dealer. They are not your friend by any means. Cover your butt.
Can you tell I'm a big BATFE fan?
Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:19 am
Just ask Randy Weaver about them
Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:29 pm
Those sound like dangerous waters to travelling in. I'd better follows the guidelines.
PC
PC
???
Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:04 am
Reminds me of when we took the B-25 up to Seattle for Sea Fair and the FAA guy wanted to see the paperwork on all our MGs on the bomber. He got very pissed when I laughed so hard at him I blew coke out my nose.
Sam Richardson's was a good diplomat though!
Sam Richardson's was a good diplomat though!
Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:10 am
So the guy was ok with the MG's on the aircraft, but he just wanted to make sure they were legal? Sounds good to me.
PC
PC
Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:36 am
Funny you US guys should mention this - in the UK a new law, the Violent Disorder Bill is threatening to outlaw all replica, blank firing and deactivated weapons in the UK - we already have some of the toughest gun control laws in the world but this law will have the effect of crippling the museum/collectors/reenactors market - and, quite naturally, will have a knock on effect with former military aircraft.
Not so bad you might think if you have a P-51 where (if you dont open the gun bays) a barrel jacket and machined tube 'barrel' would suffice....but think of the WW1 aircraft such as the Hind and SE5A, or later aircraft such as the Swordfish - without Lewises or the B17 without any .50s, not so much of a flying fortress - what with the insurance debacle we are still suffering, its enough to drive you crazy.
Deact MGs in the UK are neutered by a gunsmith, normally by machining the bolt face, cutting a slot in the barrel and welding it up - a Deactivating Certificate is then issued, rendering it (presently) legal.
TT
Not so bad you might think if you have a P-51 where (if you dont open the gun bays) a barrel jacket and machined tube 'barrel' would suffice....but think of the WW1 aircraft such as the Hind and SE5A, or later aircraft such as the Swordfish - without Lewises or the B17 without any .50s, not so much of a flying fortress - what with the insurance debacle we are still suffering, its enough to drive you crazy.
Deact MGs in the UK are neutered by a gunsmith, normally by machining the bolt face, cutting a slot in the barrel and welding it up - a Deactivating Certificate is then issued, rendering it (presently) legal.
TT
Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:48 am
TEXANTOMCAT wrote:Funny you US guys should mention this - in the UK a new law, the Violent Disorder Bill is threatening to outlaw all replica, blank firing and deactivated weapons in the UK - we already have some of the toughest gun control laws in the world but this law will have the effect of crippling the museum/collectors/reenactors market - and, quite naturally, will have a knock on effect with former military aircraft.
Not so bad you might think if you have a P-51 where (if you dont open the gun bays) a barrel jacket and machined tube 'barrel' would suffice....but think of the WW1 aircraft such as the Hind and SE5A, or later aircraft such as the Swordfish - without Lewises or the B17 without any .50s, not so much of a flying fortress - what with the insurance debacle we are still suffering, its enough to drive you crazy.
Deact MGs in the UK are neutered by a gunsmith, normally by machining the bolt face, cutting a slot in the barrel and welding it up - a Deactivating Certificate is then issued, rendering it (presently) legal.
TT
Because taking the real ones away isn't good enough? SAD, very sad. It seems that out military Heritage just keeps getting trampled every time we turn around.
Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:53 am
You're quite right - with the trend towards 'stock' aircraft including armament, ammo runs, dummy ammo, original radios etc championed by the Oshkosh boys, FHC, TFC and Kermit Weeks amongst others, it is phenomenally frustrating for all that work, in the UK at least, to be undone - Will the 37mm have to be removed from TFCs P-39!? 
???
Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:36 am
So the guy was ok with the MG's on the aircraft, but he just wanted to make sure they were legal? Sounds good to me.
Our guns are aluminum pipe with holes drilled for the cooling jacket and a pvc pipe running down the middle! All the world needs is a little man with a big ego hoping to ground a 60 year old airplane that's heavily armed with plumbing supplies.