Warbird Information Exchange

Contrary to what may be seen in the following eBay item (as at 23:55 CST on Feb 3rd 2006) the Cavanaugh Flight Museum MIG 21 depicted in the main body of the listing, is NOT for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... Q%3AUS%3A1


The seller who created this ad, decided he would copy most of the content from a CFM web page for the MIG 21, and paste it into his auction, together with most of the associated text, in total disregard of the CFM copyright. This was taken from our previous web design as can be seen in its entirety here, which I recognized straight away, because I helped create it:

http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com/Ai ... Page1.html

After receiving a phone call asking me why CFM was selling its MIG 21 on eBay "via a broker in Europe", I discussed the matter with Doug, and Doug asked me to “communicate the appropriate objections” to both the seller and eBay.

I wrote the following message to the seller:

NOTE: 4504 is NOT for Sale. This seller has used photographs/content taken directly from Cavanaugh Flight Museum web site. The aircraft pictured is not associated in anyway with the Seller. Seller: Please indicate this in your advert. Buyers: Please do not contact Cavanaugh Flight Museum regarding this sale. Cavanaugh Flight Museum is not associated with this seller.

I sent a similar message to eBay via the eBay VeRO process, also indicating that all the web pages at the CFM web site clearly contain copyright statements and that the CFM had received no request from the seller to use our material, and that in its current form the item was misleading as to what was actually for sale.

After receiving my message, the seller did add a line to the auction item to indicate that the aircraft being sold was the one in the other 2 photographs, but still did not indicate that the other pictures and text were “for reference only”, nor did he attribute his content to the CFM.

He did however send me a response, which is as follows: (exactly as received, including spelling mistakes)

List 4505 is not for sale you idoit its the one for sale 5213 the main photo i have all docs to all aircraft so don't worry i have plenty to sell

I know that the subject of obtaining permission for using photos and content, or at least giving the appropriate credit to the original owner/author, is something taken very seriously by “Wixers”, as can be read in previous threads, but I thought you might all be interested to see how some people have an almost callous disregard for the work of others even when clearly marked as "copyright".

And Doug: I may be English, but this eBay seller is in Scotland not England, so his/her response may be due to some sort of language barrier.

Needle.

Die Nadle:

Interesting subject!

Some idiots out there, believe that the issue of photo credits and / or copyrights, has only bearing when you are making "money" out of the photos.

Indirectly, this lack of ethics on the part of the e-bay seller, has resulted in time wasted by you and the CFM.

No matter how many times someone tries to explain it to them, they don't get it. I guess it takes a little more than just a computer, to be "computer literate."

Saludos,


Tulio

$70,000 reserve and they can't be bothered to pull their own MiG out for photographs?

Unbelievable.

The bid is 70,000 but the reserve hasn't been met yet. I wonder what the reserve on this bird is?

It's a strange add for shure.

Stieglitz

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www.urselavia.be

Look at the sellers other items.

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When all is said and done more is said than done.

If it were me, I'd report the advertisement to Ebay through their Resolution Center link and make an argument to have the advertisment pulled, or at least relisted properly. I think there is enough information to warrant such an action, including the abusive language from the seller. It's clearly causing a problem for you.

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"They done it, they done it, damned if they ain't flew." December 17, 1903

The saga continues.

I responded to the message calling me an “idoit” with the following:

As per the eBay Guidelines for Creating Legally Compliant Listings:
- Create your own listing content. You should avoid borrowing text or images (including photos) from another listing on eBay, a manufacturer's web site, product catalogs, or other sources without specific permission from the owner. Contrary to popular belief, simply because images and text may be found somewhere on the Internet does not necessarily mean that they are unprotected by copyright laws. Copyright laws apply to the Internet, and manufacturers or other copyright owners may object to the use of text or images that they own or created. You should write your own descriptive text for your listing, and take your own photos. - Thank you for amending your content, however this matter has already been forwarded to eBay via a VeRO complaint.

His response :

Dear sir

I have a vast amount of replies to this add i am transparant i have nothing to hide , let me tell you that some of the comments that people make on this ebay , i have had worse, however they all hide behind a username , and most will not reveal who they are , i have in total 20 aircraft , the test that was given told the history of the aircraft NOT the condition of the the aircraft 5213 , all flight logs etc i have hard copies which when i recieve a valid interest and they show who they are i will forward more info/docs , so the text so it doeas not infringe , and yes people need to think before attacking me with stupid comments and word was correct idoit ,now please go away and grow up report me to who you wish.

And then another response:

Oh yes one other thing who are you ?
god everbody on here is hiding from something i guess , www.euroco-corp.com

After sending me these messages, the seller then added another edit to the auction item, as follows:

Please not that the One of the MIGs 21 for sale is 5213 , and that the text is to give people some brief history to Migs, IT DOES DEPICT THAT IT DESCRIBES OURS if you want more info ie flight logs and more photos of working and none working migs that we have please look at www.euroco-corp.com or contact us at euroco@euroco-corp.com


Go to their web site. It gets even more interesting when you read the company background and details of the services they offer in the “Virtual UK”, and then go to Military Surplus and Equipment, and look at the Planes and Helicopters.

With all those pictures, why do they need to pilfer copyrighted material.

(Also the eBay seller can’t even spell the name of the town in Scotland properly. It should be spelt Newton Stewart not Newton Stuart.)

Although I have no proof, I personally don’t think that any of the equipment, or the seller, is actually in Scotland. I think the whole operation is still in Croatia or the Czech Republic, and that the seller is just making use of the very service that Euroco offers – i.e. Virtual UK.

I haven’t as yet responded to the above two messages. I also have received no response from eBay, and I suspect that the item will probably run until the close date before they do anything.

Any further suggestions……….within the law!!

Needle

Thanks for your help. " Never argue with a fool" applies here. I hope ebay will take action.

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Blue Skies,
Doug

www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com

I agree Doug.

I think I have taken all the appropriate steps at this point, and I feel I have been polite and tactful with any communication I have had with the seller.

I am not going to get into a "war of words" or a slanging match with someone who appears to have either no understanding of copyright, or chooses to have a total disregard for whatever copyrights anybody else has in place.

I will leave this to eBay to either be inactive, or to take whatever further action it chooses.

Needle

I wonder what the eBay listing fee is for an $18M C-130?

Around $35.00

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Don't touch my junk!!

I see this item has been removed by E-bay. Looks like they took some action. Good to see they did what was right.
David

The guy clearly was not an english speaker by birth. His language and idiom were completely out of place for such an upbringing. It's clearly someone from the continent posing as a scot. I can't understand either why someone trying to sell an expensive item like this wouldn't take the time and energy to make a very clear, concise and professional presentation... and have a courteous response to visitors. These guys are clearly hoodlums, and most likely connected to the mafia... such attitudes will not get them any customers with money.... I can guarantee that!

Cheers,
Richard

My belief is that the person with eBay ID of 7762grant is from Croatia or the Czech republic.

Also, the Mig 21 that was being advertised had "reserve met" at $70,500 shortly before all of the items being offered by 7762grant (APC's, MIG's, tanks, C130, etc) disappeared off eBay, and 7762grant is now no longer a registered user of eBay.

I also received a response from eBay indicating that my filing of a VeRO complaint, "bore substance", regarding copyright infringement. (I think eBay also discovered that 2 other auction listings being run by 7762grant were copies from other internet sites that contained copyright statements and therefore they had to take action fairly quickly)

I don't know where the person who met the reserve on the non-flying MIG stands.

Needle.

after looking at the EUROCORP website one would think these folks have obvious connections in eastern Europe - and it makes you wonder what kind of relationships are there? shady to be sure I would think. No offense meant to anyone here, but when someone from the former republics or USSR says in an evasive way with a grin "I'm a businessman" you have your answer right there as to how they make thier money

Tom P.