Warbird Information Exchange

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed on this site are the responsibility of the poster and do not reflect the views of the management.
It is currently Sun Jul 06, 2025 10:56 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Classic Wings Magazine WWII Naval Aviation Research Pacific Luftwaffe Resource Center
When Hollywood Ruled The Skies - Volumes 1 through 4 by Bruce Oriss


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:54 am 
Offline
S/N Geek
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 3790
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I got this from an email list I am belong to.

Mike

Quote:
A mystery behind the history plane
WWII aircraft from Gulbarga lands in Europe

Manu Pubby

Posted online: Saturday, November 04, 2006 at 0000 hrs

PUNE -- November 3 -- It has all the makings of a classic mystery -- a World War II German Messerschmitt Bf-109 fighter which flew in the Battle of Britain vanished into thin air from the storage yard of a college campus in Karnataka's Gulbarga town, where it lay forgotten for over 60 years. Four years and an unsuccessful police investigation later, aviation experts hunting for clues on the priceless aircraft have stumbled upon it in Europe.

Research by aviation enthusiasts based in India and the U.K. points out that the vintage aircraft has re-emerged on records of the United Kingdom civil aviation register as belonging to a mysterious company in the Channel Islands.

The single-seat fighter aircraft, gifted to the Nizam of Hyderabad by the British Empire in 1941 for sponsoring two RAF squadrons, was rediscovered at PDA College in Gulbarga by an Indian expert in 2002. While the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Indian collectors dilly-dallied over procuring the aircraft, it disappeared from the college campus -- apparently picked up by a millionaire British aircraft collector. The plane was valued at over Rs 7 crore in the antiques market. Police investigations hit a wall as they could not trace Girish Naidu, a Bangalore-based scrap dealer who brokered the deal.

However, aviation enthusiasts took up the hunt and traced the manufacturing number of the Bf 109 through photographs taken before it was stolen. Using the markings and registration numbers on the aircraft, England-based expert Lynn Ritger found that it belonged to German pilot Xavier Ray who crash-landed during a raid on the outskirts of London in 1940 after engine failure.

The breakthrough came early this year, when experts discovered an entry in the U.K. civil aviation registry in December 2005 matching to the stolen Messerchmitt.

"The manufacturer and construction number of G-CDTI (the new entry) is the same one traced by Ritger to the Gulbarga aircraft. As two aircraft cannot have the same construction number, it is the missing Bf 109," Jagan Pillarsetti, whose website www.warbirdsofindia.com, keeps track of vintage aircraft in the country, told The Indian Express.

Ritger, a Bf 109 historian, also confirmed the identity of the aircraft.

"The WNr 4034 [manufacturing number of the Bf 109] was indeed registered on the civil register as G-CDTI and it appears to be in Europe," Ritger confirmed. The aircraft has been registered to Rare Aero Ltd, based in Jersey, Channel Islands.

Efforts to trace the owners of Rare Aero Ltd have been unsuccessful. The buzz in international aviation forums is that Guy Black, a millionaire British aircraft collector who was rumored to have bought the aircraft in 2002, owns the company.

However, Black denies that he owns the plane. "There are all sorts of rumors about me but I do not own the company. I have heard about the aircraft and am very interested in buying it," he told The Indian Express over the phone from England.

The Corps of Detectives (CoD) of the Karnataka police, which is investigating the case, is unaware that the aircraft had been registered in Europe. " Investigations are still on but we cannot trace the main accused in the case. We know that the plane was taken out of the country but do not know where it is," says B K Singh, SP (Special investigations), Corps of Detectives, Karnataka Police.

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Bf-109
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:36 am 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:11 pm
Posts: 2672
Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
So how does one go about stealing something as big as a Bf-109 from plain sight and smuggle it out of India? :shock:

_________________
Dean Hemphill, K5DH
Port Charlotte, Florida


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Bf-109
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:46 pm 
Offline
S/N Geek
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:31 pm
Posts: 3790
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
k5dh wrote:
So how does one go about stealing something as big as a Bf-109 from plain sight and smuggle it out of India? :shock:


The same as anywhere... Make sure the right people recieive a "donation". That is my guess anyway. It is not like I have tried smuggling aircraft before.

Mike

_________________
Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2005 1:33 pm
Posts: 912
Location: Beautiful Downtown Natick, MA
In all the post-9/11 "security" reports in various media, I seem to recall several stories that the interiors of shipping containers (for cargo transit via cargo ships) are not routinely inspected. I can not imagine it is terribly difficult to move almost anything, especially items that can be taken apart to their sub-assemblies like a/c...NOT that I have ever done this.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:58 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 1525
Location: Williamsburg, VA
Since yet another informative thread regarding this aircraft was pulled from the Flypaper forum, here's the situation as it stands:

- The Bf 109E-1/B WNr 4034 appears to be the same as the one registered as G-CDTI, according to the G-INFO site, and it's somewhere in Europe.
- It's registered to a company called Rare Aero, whoever that is. (I verified both these bits of info myself)
- Whoever purchased the aircraft for export did so in good faith, covering all the necessary bases... there appears to be a question regarding whether the seller had the authority to sell it, however, which leads us to the following...
- This became a "hot topic" when a candidate for election in the region where the 109 was found used the export of the aircraft as a political issue against his opponent. This is how the Indian police got involved... again, the person/entity who purchased the aircraft for export did so in good faith, with no impropriety intended or suggested. This info comes from Jagan Pillarsetti, from the Warbirds of India site.

That's about the sum of it so far as we know. And no, I don't have the aircraft sitting in my garage, so don't ask me where it is! (God, I wish I did, though! :D)

Lynn

_________________
Wisdom, courtesy of shrike: "In aviation, as well as marriage, it's often just as important to be seen to be doing something as is to do it properly in the first place."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:08 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am
Posts: 3331
lmritger wrote:
Since yet another informative thread regarding this aircraft was pulled from the Flypaper forum......

.....possibly due to threatened legal action the last time that accusations of theft of said Messerschmitt were made on there, resulting in one of the moderators receiving a life ban.

Let's keep the discussion here factual and civil please, and not make any unsubstantiated allegations based on internet gossip.

As Lynn states "Whoever purchased the aircraft for export did so in good faith, covering all the necessary bases... "

Comments such as "So how does one go about stealing something as big as a Bf-109 from plain sight and smuggle it out of India?" are probably not helpful, at best.


Last edited by Mike on Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:10 pm 
Offline
Been here a long time
Been here a long time

Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 1:16 am
Posts: 11324
Quote:
The breakthrough came early this year, when experts discovered an entry in the U.K. civil aviation registry in December 2005 matching to the stolen Messerchmitt.
Was it in fact stolen? There was discussion about a broker and the police were investigating. Who is alleging it was stolen and from whom?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:15 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 11:52 am
Posts: 1525
Location: Williamsburg, VA
BDK, the term "stolen" apparently entered the picture during the aforementioned political campaign; Jagan can fill in more details, if he posts here, but basically there were some questions as to whether the person who originally sold it had the authority to do so, and this somehow morphed into allegations of theft. Let me reiterate that according to all accounts which I have read, the purchaser did not do anything wrong; the "theft" allegations refer to the Indian side of the transaction. It's quite sad that all this garbage has erupted, and has caused the aircraft to go back underground again... the pics I received several years ago show an absolute goldmine of early war Luftwaffe camo information, especially as it belonged to III./JG 53, which did a lot of experimentation with field-mixed colors, and the wings still carry a good deal of that camouflage.

As regards the Flypast forum issue, I was following the thread closely and no untoward allegations or discussions had taken place, only statements of known fact based on current registration records, phone calls, and observations. I wasn't aware of the last brouhaha that resulted in said ban, but it doesn't entirely surprise me.

All that said, it looks like the Norwegians have the best approach nowadays- don't tell ANYONE what you've found until you've got it in hand.

Cheers,

Lynn


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 12:36 pm
Posts: 401
Location: Right here and now
Article form miltary strategy and intel:


Quote:
Who Stole the Indian Me-109?

November 6, 2006: Five years ago, a German Me-109 fighter was discovered, in the storage yard of an Indian college, by an Indian amateur aviation historian. A year later, the Me-109 disappeared, but now it has been found, flying around Europe. No one will admit to owning it, or say anything about how the valuable (worth over a million dollars) aircraft got from India to Europe.

Until 1961, the vintage (it was brought down during the Battle of Britain in 1940, without major damage) aircraft had been given to an Indian prince, in 1941, for raising enough money to equip two fighter squadrons for the Royal Air Force. The Me-109 was displayed at a south Indian college until 1961, when it was moved to another college, and left in a storage yard. There is was discovered in 2001. Word got around. The Indian Air Force found out about it. This was the only Me-109 in India, and considered a national treasure. By law, the Antiquities Act, it is illegal to take vehicles, more than fifty years old, out of the country. The Indian Air Force asked the local government, which, technically, controlled the college storage yard containing the Me-109, and thus "owned" the aircraft, if a trade (for another, but more presentable, antique item) could be arranged. Then, the Indian Air Force would undertake restoration of the aircraft, and display it in a national museum. This would, among other things, honor the Indian pilots who participated in the Battle of Britain.

But before those negotiations were complete, the Me-109 disappeared. Well not exactly disappeared, the college trustees said they had accepted another trade offer from an Indian gentleman (Girish Naidu, a scrap dealer from Bangalore). The air force generals were furious, but the college trustees said the aircraft would be restored and displayed in India. That quieted things down for a few years, until some Indian aviation enthusiasts began to wonder where the Me-109 was. Turns out the aircraft was nowhere to be found. No one knew anything. The college trustees were rather mortified to discover that their trade items (an antique car, bicycle and an antique aircraft that wasn't) were worth about $2,000.

Another investigation commenced, but neither the aircraft, nor Girish Naidu, who had arranged the trade, could be found. Bribery, or simply fast talking and some deception, were suspected. The aircraft had been shipped out of the country in 2002, about the same time the deal was made. Apparently, there was never any intention of keeping the aircraft in India. It also turned out that the trustees of the college that traded away the Me-109 didn't legally own it. The college where the Me-109 had been until 1961 was still the owner of record.

The missing Me-109 was found in Europe, in flying condition, because the Indian aviation buffs, who originally discovered the Me-109, had taken many pictures, including shots of serial numbers on several aircraft components. These serial numbers were not changed during the restoration. European aviation magazines mentioned these serial numbers in stories about eh newly restored Me-109. The European owner of the Me-109 was a shady corporation. No one could find who owned the corporation (which was registered in the Channel Islands, where shady corporations are legal, and a major part of the local economy).

The Indian government has not yet decided what should be done. There w as apparently some bribery and corruption involved, and officials are apparently checking to see who might get hurt if the investigation goes too far. Meanwhile the local police of Gulbarga, are investigating the HKE Society, which controls the college that didn't own, but "sold", the Me-109. There may yet be justice, or maybe not.


regards,

t~


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:45 pm 
Offline
WRG Staff Photographer & WIX Brewmaster
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:57 am
Posts: 3532
Location: Chapel Hill, TN
So is it flying around like they claim? If so which a/c is it? Or are those questions that should not be asked or answered?

Are there pictures of it?

Tim

_________________
www.tailhookstudio.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:19 pm 
Offline
Co-MVP - 2006
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 11:21 pm
Posts: 11471
Location: Salem, Oregon
Wasn't there a P-51D stolen from an museum in Israel a while back?
Has I recall a IAF reserve pilot flew it out under the pretenses of getting it painted but actually sold it and the flight was for delivering it to a new owner in Europe? Am I correct here?
The name "Twilight Tear" comes to mind.

_________________
Don't touch my junk!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 1:55 pm 
Offline
3000+ Post Club
3000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am
Posts: 3331
The missing Me-109 was found in Europe, in flying condition, because the Indian aviation buffs, who originally discovered the Me-109, had taken many pictures, including shots of serial numbers on several aircraft components. These serial numbers were not changed during the restoration. European aviation magazines mentioned these serial numbers in stories about eh newly restored Me-109. The European owner of the Me-109 was a shady corporation. No one could find who owned the corporation (which was registered in the Channel Islands, where shady corporations are legal, and a major part of the local economy).

Absolute nonsense! "Found in Europe in flying condition", ".....stories about eh newly restored Me-109."

So a newly-restored 109 is flying around Europe and none of us knew anything about it. I'll have to keep my eyes open next time, it seems I must have blinked and missed it! :lol: :lol: :lol:

It seems the Indians are falling over themselves to make allegations whilst not having the first idea what they're talking about.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: ???
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:28 pm 
Offline
1000+ Posts!
1000+ Posts!
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:14 pm
Posts: 1678
Location: Oslo, NORWAY
Jack Cook wrote:
Wasn't there a P-51D stolen from an museum in Israel a while back?
Has I recall a IAF reserve pilot flew it out under the pretenses of getting it painted but actually sold it and the flight was for delivering it to a new owner in Europe? Am I correct here?
The name "Twilight Tear" comes to mind.

Here is your can of worms sir...

The Mustang was (still is???) claimed by the Israeli Air Force Museum to be their property. And that Itzhaki was just restoring it for them. It does seem a little strange that the guy was allowed to fly it for over two years (or at all, if it belonged to the museum!) before flying it to Europe. He did however have a dispute with a partner in that project. He later went to gaol on another charge, so as to his honesty it is a different question all together. On the other hand, whether or not it is the actual "Twilight Tear" is more dubious!

T J

_________________
Make my day, punk!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:55 pm 
Offline
2000+ Post Club
2000+ Post Club
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 2:43 am
Posts: 2491
Location: New Zealand
http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/walkaround/4034/4034.htm


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:50 am
Posts: 36
Location: USA
Sorry for not posting earlier. I am not as frequent a visitor i used to be.

Let me clarify certain things.

1. The transaction was done in good faith by the final buyer. When he signed the contract, the seller must have convinced him he had all the rights to it.
2. There is no question that the seller did not have the authority to sell it. The ownership is disputed. Otherwise there would not be an open police case about it.
3. The police case , i may point out is agianst the seller. (or the middle man and the institution that sold it in the first place)
3. While it is true that local politics played some role in 'publicising' the issue and keeping it alive, they did not play any role in 'making up' the case. in short. if the case was not sustainable in the first place, no amount of local politics would have made the charges stick.
4. The press , in any country is not expected to be knowledgeable in matters as these. So there is no suprirse in reading about it 'flying in europe' or 'seeing it registered in the name of xavier ray' etc.
5. The fact that the Indian Air Force and even the Ministry of Defence got involved at some point shows there was some official interest in keeping the aircraft in India for preservation purposes
6. It has been pointed out to me that while the current owners had bought it in good faith , the issue of actually transporting it outside the country is still left open to debate. If the 'export' had happened before the police case was opened, then I guess the owners did it in good faith. There was after all a four month hiatus between the aircraft going missing and the legal case being opened. But if the export has happened after the police case was opened and the controversy has broken out, the owners will have some explaining to do when the controversy reaches them.

Regards

Jagan

_________________
Warbirds of India


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Vital Spark and 48 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group