Ethical Dilemma
Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:54 pm
I don't know where this one belongs so I'll just stick in the "off topic" section and see what happens. I found these photos at my folks house and I guess they got me to thinking. These were probably taken around 1969 at Creve Coeur Airport. I think the yellow Pt might be a -19 with a canopy, maybe a -26, I don't know for sure. That's me on the wing and my father putting in some oil. That old Ranger used about as much oil as it did gas. The Smith Mini Plane came just before the Pt or maybe just after.
Like many of you WIXers, I don't recall a time in my life that I was not around airplanes. In one way or another, aviation has been the central theme of my life even though it's not something I do for a living at this point. I was exposed to vintage airplanes because that's all my father could afford at the time, I'm sure he would have rather had a nice late 50's or early 60's Bonanza but that was not an option. In time, he grew to like the older planes so that's what he decided to collect. Of course I went along for the ride, and what a ride it's been. It's been a great deal of fun but I have to admit, there are times I feel like this hobby is partly a curse. Like many of you, I've lost too many friends. Let's face it, most of us know more people that have died in airplane accidents than car accidents. My daughter is 6 and my son is 4. Very soon, I expect they will start asking why I don't take them for rides in the Stearman or the SNJ or some of the other odd ball airplanes in my father's collection. My wife's father died in a mid-air back in 96', a few months before our wedding. She has understandable mixed feelings about this hobby but she knows I'm not going to stop flying. It's possible that my kids may not show any serious interest in aviation but I suspect that they will. Do I really want my kids to get hooked on this stuff? Honest to God, I really don't know.
Like many of you WIXers, I don't recall a time in my life that I was not around airplanes. In one way or another, aviation has been the central theme of my life even though it's not something I do for a living at this point. I was exposed to vintage airplanes because that's all my father could afford at the time, I'm sure he would have rather had a nice late 50's or early 60's Bonanza but that was not an option. In time, he grew to like the older planes so that's what he decided to collect. Of course I went along for the ride, and what a ride it's been. It's been a great deal of fun but I have to admit, there are times I feel like this hobby is partly a curse. Like many of you, I've lost too many friends. Let's face it, most of us know more people that have died in airplane accidents than car accidents. My daughter is 6 and my son is 4. Very soon, I expect they will start asking why I don't take them for rides in the Stearman or the SNJ or some of the other odd ball airplanes in my father's collection. My wife's father died in a mid-air back in 96', a few months before our wedding. She has understandable mixed feelings about this hobby but she knows I'm not going to stop flying. It's possible that my kids may not show any serious interest in aviation but I suspect that they will. Do I really want my kids to get hooked on this stuff? Honest to God, I really don't know.
Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:20 pm
I certainly don't have an answer for your dilemma (or any of mine either). I spend a lot of time trying to convince my loved ones how safe flying is yet over the years I have lost lots of friends and acquaintances as well. I'm not sure that I am intellectually honest with myself.
I suspect that aviation is a small, tight knit community where everyone knows almost everyone. It was fun to meet you at Creve Coeur and reminisce about all the friends and acquaintances we had in common even though I live over 2,000 miles away from you and we had never met in person previously. If I was into speedboats or water skiing I doubt it would be the same.
I worry every day about my one year old learning to walk. Is he one "face plant" away from a serious head injury? Falling off the bed? Drowning in the pool? What if I drop him? All serious questions and I'm sure my parents worried about the same things when I was his age. On the other hand he is a kid and needs to learn these things- I can't very well lock him in a rubber room to protect him, he would have no quality of life at all.
I am the only pilot in my family so none of my family has mixed feelings. They really don't want me to fly and my wife thinks that aviation is a waste of time and money. She would think that about any hobby though.
Interesting topic and I too am curious how others feel on this subject.
I suspect that aviation is a small, tight knit community where everyone knows almost everyone. It was fun to meet you at Creve Coeur and reminisce about all the friends and acquaintances we had in common even though I live over 2,000 miles away from you and we had never met in person previously. If I was into speedboats or water skiing I doubt it would be the same.
I worry every day about my one year old learning to walk. Is he one "face plant" away from a serious head injury? Falling off the bed? Drowning in the pool? What if I drop him? All serious questions and I'm sure my parents worried about the same things when I was his age. On the other hand he is a kid and needs to learn these things- I can't very well lock him in a rubber room to protect him, he would have no quality of life at all.
I am the only pilot in my family so none of my family has mixed feelings. They really don't want me to fly and my wife thinks that aviation is a waste of time and money. She would think that about any hobby though.
Interesting topic and I too am curious how others feel on this subject.
Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:27 pm
True, if you hang around aviation long enough you are likely going to be associated with someone who dies in an aircraft. While that may be true, anyone who has gone to their 10 year high school reunion is likely to tell you that it isn't the most dangerous hobby for a kid to get involved with. Of my high school graduating class (about 800 or so in 1996 in a generally well to do school) there were 3 suicides, 4 overdoses, 5 killed by car crash, 3 to disease and those are just the ones that we know about. In my opinion keeping your kids involved in your hobbies is a good way to keep them from getting involved with much more self destructive activities and hanging out with the wrong sorts of people. I think exposing them to a little bit of a lot of things is a good way to let them come up with their own interests, dreams and aspirations.
In an average year 35,000 people die in car accidents and 700 (that works out to about 1.32 per 100,000 flight hours) are killed in general aviation accidents.
In an average year 35,000 people die in car accidents and 700 (that works out to about 1.32 per 100,000 flight hours) are killed in general aviation accidents.
Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:36 am
Everything in life involves risk. If you know more people that have been killed in airplanes than cars, then that's probably because you are actively involved in aviation. Like bdk said, it's a small, tight-knit community. People will likely remember a plane accident more than a car accident. I've lost friends in both, and I don't plan to stop driving any time soon.
I am not a pilot, but I do get in airplanes to take pictures many times a year. In my immediate family, I am the only one who is into aviation. So I often hear about "how dangerous" "those little planes" are. Are they really? There are pilots I will jump right into an airplane with because I know them and trust them. Those are the people I would trust my children with, and have trusted my son with. I would never let my son go up with a plane and pilot that are unfamiliar to me. That's managing the risk. Can accidents happen? Sure, but at least if you know the plane and the pilot, you have less unknowns and more assurance that if the fit does hit the shan, you are with the person that can handle it to the best of their ability.
I have been up several times in the rear seat of a T-6 for photo ops and for some training (I would like to be a pilot some day, time and money have usually been the constraints). There is nothing like that experience, the sense of history, the freedom of breaking the bonds of gravity and knowing that somewhere on the ground, some kid (or adult for that matter) is looking up at that vintage plane and enjoying the sight and sound of it.
Dangerous, perhaps, but as my own father says "I would rather die regretting things I did, than things I didn't". And I will take flying any day over bungee jumping!
I am not a pilot, but I do get in airplanes to take pictures many times a year. In my immediate family, I am the only one who is into aviation. So I often hear about "how dangerous" "those little planes" are. Are they really? There are pilots I will jump right into an airplane with because I know them and trust them. Those are the people I would trust my children with, and have trusted my son with. I would never let my son go up with a plane and pilot that are unfamiliar to me. That's managing the risk. Can accidents happen? Sure, but at least if you know the plane and the pilot, you have less unknowns and more assurance that if the fit does hit the shan, you are with the person that can handle it to the best of their ability.
I have been up several times in the rear seat of a T-6 for photo ops and for some training (I would like to be a pilot some day, time and money have usually been the constraints). There is nothing like that experience, the sense of history, the freedom of breaking the bonds of gravity and knowing that somewhere on the ground, some kid (or adult for that matter) is looking up at that vintage plane and enjoying the sight and sound of it.
Dangerous, perhaps, but as my own father says "I would rather die regretting things I did, than things I didn't". And I will take flying any day over bungee jumping!
Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:45 am
At the ages of 4 and 6 it is not too early to introduce the kids to flying...with one caveat though... It's too early to put either one of them in the back hole by themselves for any kind of flight. I wouldn't worry a bit about having my 6 year old in the rear seat during a taxi test or taxi over to the fuel pumps, but I would never allow him to be in the back hole alone during a flight at that age. Too many things that can happen and way too scarry for a kid that small, in a hole that deep, during their first couple of experiences of flight.
If you want to introduce them to flying, go rent a spam can where they can be beside you. It will alleviate a lot of their hidden fears and will help to set them at ease and at the same time, make it easier on you to gauge their reactions and control their actions. Also, pick a day where you can get up and have smooth and cool air. An early morning like that allows a much more comfortable flight than one in the heat of the day and a bunch of CAT.
We used to introduce a lot of people to aerobatic flight in the SF-260's and found that the closer to dawn or sunset we were and the more indistinct the horizon,and the cool the temp., the better the ride went for them.
One idea would be to have the aircraft ready, preflight done and then have mom deliver one of the kids to you at the airport. Pick a place nearby, say twenty-thirty minuet flight and meet mom and the other kide there. Have a nice breakfast or lunch or dinner and swap kids for the flight home. The flight is short enough that neither child should get restless or bored, and it gives purpose to the flight. It also gives you some one-on-one time with each child and some time to evaluate how each handles flying.
My oldest started flying in the airliners when he was less than 6 months old, and has a pretty blase atitude about them. I'll start taking him up in the spam can as soon as I get my medical renewed and get current in something this fall.
BTW... forgot to add...when you intro them to their first few flights...make them as smooth and as comfortable as possible. No stalls, steep turns...ie as close to an airliner flight as you can make it. Once they are comfortable in the airplane and enjoy flying, then you can introduce the non-straight and level aspects of flight and flying in less than smooth air. Above all, be prepared for a lot of agitation and fear, but don't get upset or frustrated if it shows.
If you want to introduce them to flying, go rent a spam can where they can be beside you. It will alleviate a lot of their hidden fears and will help to set them at ease and at the same time, make it easier on you to gauge their reactions and control their actions. Also, pick a day where you can get up and have smooth and cool air. An early morning like that allows a much more comfortable flight than one in the heat of the day and a bunch of CAT.
We used to introduce a lot of people to aerobatic flight in the SF-260's and found that the closer to dawn or sunset we were and the more indistinct the horizon,and the cool the temp., the better the ride went for them.
One idea would be to have the aircraft ready, preflight done and then have mom deliver one of the kids to you at the airport. Pick a place nearby, say twenty-thirty minuet flight and meet mom and the other kide there. Have a nice breakfast or lunch or dinner and swap kids for the flight home. The flight is short enough that neither child should get restless or bored, and it gives purpose to the flight. It also gives you some one-on-one time with each child and some time to evaluate how each handles flying.
My oldest started flying in the airliners when he was less than 6 months old, and has a pretty blase atitude about them. I'll start taking him up in the spam can as soon as I get my medical renewed and get current in something this fall.
BTW... forgot to add...when you intro them to their first few flights...make them as smooth and as comfortable as possible. No stalls, steep turns...ie as close to an airliner flight as you can make it. Once they are comfortable in the airplane and enjoy flying, then you can introduce the non-straight and level aspects of flight and flying in less than smooth air. Above all, be prepared for a lot of agitation and fear, but don't get upset or frustrated if it shows.
Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:32 pm
I can't help you with your dilemma, but my grand children both fly with me and have since they were 4 years old.
I, however, NEVER fly with both boys in the airplane. If something were to happen (I consider myself a safe and careful pilot) I could not live with the possible consequences.
It costs me more to take them flying, but they each get their own "quality" time with "Pop Pop"!
Blue skies,
Jerry
I, however, NEVER fly with both boys in the airplane. If something were to happen (I consider myself a safe and careful pilot) I could not live with the possible consequences.
It costs me more to take them flying, but they each get their own "quality" time with "Pop Pop"!
Blue skies,
Jerry
Thanks
Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:27 am
Thanks for the comments, I appreciate the thoughts. Perhaps "Ethical" is the wrong word to use in this topic's name. I don't want to be one of those "do as I say but not as I do" parents. Since I plan on staying involved in vintage aviation, I guess I better get ready for them to start asking for a ride. I used to give lots of rides in my Stearman and have had several two year olds sitting on a parents lap in the front seat (what the h*ll was I thinking?) and for the most part, all the rides I've ever given have been uneventful.
My friends find it interesting that my wife has never been in a plane with me at the controls. Maybe she's seen my crosswind landings? Maybe she would rather fly with somebody who has two working eyeballs instead of just one?
From a statistical point of view, flying or riding in vintage aircraft is probably less safe than driving to the local Quick Mart. I've seen the math, it's still safer than a pub crawl in downtown St. Louis but not by much. Still, flying vintage aircraft is a calculated risk and I always seem to convince myself that I'm on the right side of the equation. Maybe it's like a pub crawl in a small town in Alaska, you know, where the odds are good but the goods are odd.
I know this conversation with my wife is not far off in the future. Maybe Eric Downing can pinch hit for me, you know, act as my "legal" representation on this issue. He has such a calming and subtle approach on this kind of stuff.
My friends find it interesting that my wife has never been in a plane with me at the controls. Maybe she's seen my crosswind landings? Maybe she would rather fly with somebody who has two working eyeballs instead of just one?
From a statistical point of view, flying or riding in vintage aircraft is probably less safe than driving to the local Quick Mart. I've seen the math, it's still safer than a pub crawl in downtown St. Louis but not by much. Still, flying vintage aircraft is a calculated risk and I always seem to convince myself that I'm on the right side of the equation. Maybe it's like a pub crawl in a small town in Alaska, you know, where the odds are good but the goods are odd.
I know this conversation with my wife is not far off in the future. Maybe Eric Downing can pinch hit for me, you know, act as my "legal" representation on this issue. He has such a calming and subtle approach on this kind of stuff.
Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:53 am
Life is dangerous, the best solution for this is to prepare the kids properly. I grew up around guns and my father taught me how to use and respect them (though I am rusty now) but it meant I used them safely. My father didn't teach me to drive, my friends did. And thus I spent most of my youth risking my life street racing and doing stupid things with cars.
I guess my point is, your into aviation, which means your kids will either be into it or really opposed to it. Guide there entry into it and teach them the respect that will make them better pilots. If they show no interest then you don't have a problem.
It's 3am, sorry if I rambled.
I guess my point is, your into aviation, which means your kids will either be into it or really opposed to it. Guide there entry into it and teach them the respect that will make them better pilots. If they show no interest then you don't have a problem.
It's 3am, sorry if I rambled.
Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:17 pm
There are a lot good comments here. I too am from a flying family. The planes I knew (until a recent Mooney) did not have nose wheels, and usually had two wings (Kinner Great Lakes, Waco RNF, etc.).
Life is for living. It is not living if we're constantly paralized by an unsubstantiated threat. I've never been able to understand how some will say "ill never fly again' after they've lost someone in an aviation incident, yet drive their car home from the funeral of someone lost in a car accident. I suppose it may be because the automobile is such a part of our total living experience, people may reason that "we have to drive". So they are able to rationalize away the threat from the source of their loss.
Some choose to fly, but if you think about it, some of us also HAVE to. Flying maybe part of their total living experience. On the other hand our mates sometimes need to have our support , even if their needs are not to our liking. Tuff row to hoe. Hope you and the missus can come to a workable solution regarding the lives and living of your kids.
Life is for living. It is not living if we're constantly paralized by an unsubstantiated threat. I've never been able to understand how some will say "ill never fly again' after they've lost someone in an aviation incident, yet drive their car home from the funeral of someone lost in a car accident. I suppose it may be because the automobile is such a part of our total living experience, people may reason that "we have to drive". So they are able to rationalize away the threat from the source of their loss.
Some choose to fly, but if you think about it, some of us also HAVE to. Flying maybe part of their total living experience. On the other hand our mates sometimes need to have our support , even if their needs are not to our liking. Tuff row to hoe. Hope you and the missus can come to a workable solution regarding the lives and living of your kids.