Warbird Information Exchange

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I see a fat lady in a bathing suit? Sounds like they are wasting their money- I hear that national health care is dead.

So what is the right amount? Who is the decider? If I had more disposable income I would donate more. Should I donate for a cancer cure or for Haiti relief?

If this happens, the US manned space program is effectively dead. Sure, we'll be able to pay the Russians (or maybe in a few years the Chinese) to give our astronauts a seat on their flights, but Constellation wasn't just a Moon Program ... it was also the shuttle-replacement for hauling bodies up to the ISS.

Assuming the shuttle still gets retired (I don't think President Obama is going to stick his political neck out for a system that has seen the loss of two vehicles and 14 lives), there's no US manned access to space until the hypothesized private-initiative vehicles get built and certified. And the true likelihood of that is ...?

My sincere thanks to everyone who has posted so far. This is, to me, the most interesting and thought provoking thread that we've had here in a long time.

Michael

I think that everyone needs to WAIT and see what the presidents offical decision is before they jump to conclusions.
Personally i think the program should be delayed for 2-3 years untill the economy calms down.

I think the banner ad content is a product of the phpBB software and hosting service that hosts WIX as well as many other forums, and is not directly related to WIX or its administrators. Currently I'm seeing a banner ad for Amazon.com.

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"They done it, they done it, damned if they ain't flew." December 17, 1903

Looking back, I believe the US space program was almost pointless after Apollo. The Space Shuttle was largely a dead end, and (IMO) did relatively little to expand science. Beyond that, it didn't do anything to inspire the next generation of explorers.

Back when Apollo was underway, NASA was largely a "Get the job done" engineering organization. It was founded in 1958 and wasn't the bureaucracy it is today. After Apollo, and with no real "next mission", NASA went into the mode of "Let's create a mission, sell the idea, and preserve our funding. Otherwise, we're all out of work" Typical bureaucracy. Today, the bureaucracy is 52 years old and is as much in the business of perpetuating the bureaucracy as in the business of space flight. Gut the bureaucracy and a manned spaceflight mission probably becomes affordable again. But you could say the same thing about virutally all government programs and organizations. Bureaucracy is what drives all the horror stories that get reported by the press.

Additionally, from a cost/benefit standpoint, going back to the Moon, or even sending men to Mars seems like diminshing returns. Under the original Moon program, we spent a fabulous amount of money, yet still accepted a substantial risk of loss of life on those missions. In today's world, we'd never accept the odds we accepted the first time around, so the expense would be exponentially higher.

The really sad thing is that NASA is a tiny, tiny part of the budget. Entitlement programs are where the real money goes, and nobody has the courage to address them.

So here come my two cents rolling in...

(after re-reading this before posting it, I apologize for it being long-winded, and hope that it is at least half on topic).



I think technological advancements are the most important part to a nations success. People always want to buy something better. So, whoever has the best stuff, sells the most, right?

Advancements/innovations come from SMART PEOPLE. You can pretty much gauge how powerful/prominent a nation is simply from the number of smart/innovative people it has.

Education is so fundamentally important to a nation; this is why we see India and China educating their people so much. It's to give their contries a competitive edge on the rest of the world. The more smart people in the country the more ambitious their goals can be. At the time of the Apollo program the USA would arguably have had the most smart people in the world. They could do anything, really.

Ever since then (or so) there's been a drop in innovation in the USA, which is frightening. Once the USA was home to the greatest and strongest auto manufacturers. Sadly, that is totally different now (in my eyes). For a long time the Japanese have been producing very good vehicles, and very often better vehicles than those made in the US. It seems as the the US auto industry decided to stop innovating. Meanwhile other nations continue their push and are producing, dare I say, better cars for cheaper. I kind of view US built cars as uninspiring, while Japanese, German, Korean, heck even Chinese cars seem to have a competitive edge.

From an outside of the USA perspective, I see the states in a very bad position when it comes to technological innovation. There is still a giant number of extremely smart people in the US, but they are not being pushed to their limits, they are not being challenged, and thus; do not produce as great innovations as they could.

What's the solution? Something challenging.... like a space race, like a full-scale war.... (those create a need to be better, of face defeat).... but really, we live in a fairly peaceful time and innovation is not that important... so, with the US being the "best" nation in the world when it comes to practically everything, how can the US push itself when it's already #1?

Being on the top with no reason to keep improving has allowed other nations to easily catch up. Which is not good (in my mind) because despite the "haters" out there, the USA has done a very good job of being the Super Power in the world. Compared to any other nation that has ruled the world, I can't think of any nation that has done it with such decent respect for other nations, for peace (when able), and for not taking everything over.

Please pardon the above tangent.

So, I am kind of upset that the Moon mission is no more. I'm also upset that all technology related to that mission is over. I'm also pretty annoyed that the space shuttle is not getting replaced with something newer and better. Seems like a giant step backwards to me.

What are all the smart people in the USA going to be left with? Making perscription drugs (which are too expensive and we don't need), designing new versions of the slap-chop? Making NASCARS louder? .... I'm tangenting again aren't I?

I just feel like the USA is very close to losing it's footing as being the Super Power, and that's sad because I don't like the alternatives.

If the USA doesn't continue to push it's in house innovations then the world will certainly change.

Anyways, to wrap it all up... it's sad to see the smart minds in the US not being used, thus resulting in the US losing power on the global stage. There needs to be some kind of technological challenge, soon.

It's too bad that the economy is in such disrepair that even if the nation was interested in going to the moon, that there simply isn't money for it. No matter who the president is right now, they would be cutting the moon mission to save money. Sad but true. It's an item that is incredibly expensive, doesn't garner much public support/interest, and is complete expendable.

Rant over.

Peace,

David

Bill, that has nothing to do with WIX. It comes with the forum software. There is no way of getting rid of it. I ran a forum for awhile and it had the same thing, Google ads.

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Shop the Airplane Bunker At
www.warbirdbunker.com

We can debate the merits of sending men/women and machines back to the moon but: Our space program employs hundreds of thousands of people across the country, It advances technology at an accelerated rate. It's a source of National pride and other countries look to us to be the leader in space exploration.
To me, the benefits outway the costs. The thought of the Russians and Chinese becoming the leaders in space is hard to accept. American astronauts will be forced to hitch rides to our own space station on Russian rockets (that was a five year plan as it was between Shuttle retirement and Orion start). It's no secret that China is driving toward a manned lunar mission.
I would have loved to have seen a "next generation/improved Shuttle" brought on-line in conjunction with Constellation. There's something to be said for a winged vehicle being "flown" back from space to a runway landing. I think we are taking an enormous step backward and it's a shame. Someday we will look very foolish and short sighted. It was bad enough that we landed on the moon six times and simply quit and walked away (Apollo)....

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

I agree. The Shuttle is the single most expensive method to get into orbit devised by man. How then is it sensible when it was more expensive than Apollo which was disposable?

All satellites, with the exception of some military ones tossed out of the shuttle bay, go up in disposable vehicles. Most of them get into orbit via the private sector, although much of the infrastructure is owned by the military. Pretty soon commercial passengers will be going into space on joyrides, launched from commercial airports and/or spaceports. What advances has the space program provided to us lately that the private sector wouldn't have- perhaps sooner?

From the Kennedy Space Center Media Gallery: The newly completed Constellation launch tower:

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"Everyone wants to live here (New Jersey), evidenced by the fact that it has the highest population per capita in the U.S..."

gentlemen.

12 April marks the flight of Yuri Gagarine towards space. A man in space. 12 April also marks the first flight of the space shuttle. 12 April a worldwide celebration is done, called Yuri's night to celebrate both aniversaries and also to promote the idea we should strive to put humanity in space. I'm arranging for a party in Lisboa, you can do something to celebrate 12 April in your town. If you wanna join just go to http://yurisnight.net and register.

Apolo happened because people were receptive to it. Now there is no Cold War to tune people in so we got to get people excited about space in other ways.And maybe, now, we can get people excited about space because of the right reasons. It's in everybody hands to pass the message. If you do care, do something about it.

best regards,

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rreis

If you want pictures, see rreis@flickr

to be clear, 12 April 1981, Columbia first flight.

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rreis

If you want pictures, see rreis@flickr

You have to factor that right now society is much more risk averse than it was during Apollo. When Apollo went if someone died it was bad but it wouldn't stop the program (it didn't). Right now it would be a killer. There is a progression towards risk aversion that makes things go much slower and become more expensive.

best,

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rreis

If you want pictures, see rreis@flickr

Maybe we should keep some industry (space exploration) in America. We don't have much else, other than a service economy as previously mentioned.

As for politics, this site might be a useful place to voice your opinions. www.redblueforum.com
Never been to that site, but I hear it is set up just for political debate.