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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:52 pm 
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 Post subject: draft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Rep. Charles Rangle, D-NY was quoted in the paper today that Congress would never have voted for the Iraq War if they knew that their sons and daughters would be the ones serving in combat. This is along the same theme that I think Kerry was trying to say; that is the ones bearing the burden of military service and combat are too often the young and the ones without as much education or economic opportunity. I guess it depends on your veiw of the war. Some see 99% high school degrees as high, others see 96% not college educated as low. Either way, it seems unfair that soldiers should have to do multiple tours of combat. Have we now been in this war as long as WWII?

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 Post subject: Re: Draft
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:15 pm 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
BDK, don't see how your accusation about the media is true. CNN reported tonight about Rangle's bill in 2004 where it was defeated 402 to 2. Don't see how this is Democratic deceit as even though Gop broght it to a vote,both parties overwhelmignly voted it down.
CNN must have read my post! :wink:

Bill Greenwood wrote:
Rep. Charles Rangle, D-NY was quoted in the paper today that Congress would never have voted for the Iraq War if they knew that their sons and daughters would be the ones serving in combat. This is along the same theme that I think Kerry was trying to say; that is the ones bearing the burden of military service and combat are too often the young and the ones without as much education or economic opportunity.?
The DOD says otherwise and I have provided that documentation in another post. You disagree but provide no refuting factual documentation, only emotional rhetoric.

Bill Greenwood wrote:
Have we now been in this war as long as WWII?
We are still in both Europe and Japan as well as South Korea. So no, we haven't been there over 50 years. Do we still have an active war in the traditional sense with infantry and tank battles? No! We are now trying to keep a civil war suppressed in as humanitarian a manner as possible. We certainly don't want to use Saddam's methods to keep the peace (poison gas, death squads, and ethnic cleansing for instance).


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 Post subject: ???
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:52 pm 
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Seeing all these folks running around with spiked hair and all kinds of piecings in their faces hanging out in packs with no direction in their lives makes me scream YES-draft those bastards!! I think Switzerland and Isreal have it right. Boot camp sure straightened my *ss out. Serving in the military gave me direction, pride, resolve and some great life experiences. Rant over!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:06 pm 
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I for one hope that they do not return to a draft, at least in the form we have seen before. I do believe that all able-bodied men should be willing to serve, but I believe I would go with an :shock: "Old Testament" style system where newlyweds, those who are just establishing property or houses, or those who were fearful simply did not have to go. I also happen to believe that our Constitution and the Colonial idea of a militia (no I'm not advocating some of the strange birds out there today) might not be such a bad thing... And maybe reinstitute a form of the old privateers or something like the Rough Riders and give them commissions to go "terrorist hunting" (read old time - pirate hunting) if there is a need for such things. I don't think we'd be at the point we are at now if we spent more time with securing our own borders as opposed to police operations all over the globe. That's why I didn't join the Air Force to begin with, instead of going the private route to becoming a pilot!

Ryan

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 Post subject: War
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:29 pm 
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BDK, We are not still at war in Europe or Japan, think that ended in 1945. So as I asked we may have been in the Iraq war longer.The sources for the facts I used were widely reported in the media, USA Today, CNN, and other major tv outlets. You gave facts from DOD, which I think is a little like getting information on lung cancer from the tobacco companies.

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 Post subject: Re: War
PostPosted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:57 am 
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Bill Greenwood wrote:
BDK, We are not still at war in Europe or Japan, think that ended in 1945. So as I asked we may have been in the Iraq war longer.The sources for the facts I used were widely reported in the media, USA Today, CNN, and other major tv outlets. You gave facts from DOD, which I think is a little like getting information on lung cancer from the tobacco companies.
My point is that I'm not sure we have a war. Wars normally are fought between countries or at least political authorities. What we are fighting are more appropriately warlords in the guise of religious zealots. The "war" consists of roadside bombings, random sniping and kidnappings, and small skirmishes between religious factions. This is nothing like WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and I don't think it is appropriate to compare the two in the manner you did. The phrase "war on terror" that has been used I think is unfortunate and is a misnomer.

Please restate your facts so I may understand. Are you saying that the military receives a disproportionate amount of people with low IQs, low levels of education, and/or low income (well below the 50th percentile)? What about all the folks who joined right after 9/11? Did they want to do what they felt was their patriotic duty or was something socioeconomic causing this phenomenon?


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 Post subject: Draft
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:57 pm 
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BDK, I was quoting Rep. Rangel who essentially said that the current military service burden does not impact equally on classes. He didn't say anything about IQ. Certainly in times like after Pearl Harbor or 9-11, people join up out of patriotism. But in the long run many people join because their other options are less. One of the other posters wrote that the US pays a large enlistment bonus. In my case I was patriotic or gullible enough to join, but I did it after college. I had the IQ and economic background to go to college, but the other good thing I had was that a college education was the norm and the prefered way, rather than secondary to military service. I went to the same high school as George W. by the way.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:47 pm 
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Now there is a believable source for factual information! Charles Rangel? :lol:

Quote:
Millions of American citizens who have been convicted of crimes in the past are denied the ability to cast ballots in elections.


Quote:
We don't windsurf in Harlem.


Quote:
"Well," Rangel said. "I really think that he shatters the myth of white supremacy once and for all; it shows that, in this great country, anybody can become president."


Quote:
"It's the biggest fraud ever committed on the people of this country," Rangel told WWRL Radio's Steve Malzberg and Karen Hunter. "This is just as bad as six million Jews being killed. The whole world knew it and they were quiet about it, because it wasn't their ox that was being gored."


Quote:
Quote:
"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way,"

Source:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900376_pf.html


1. If the evidence was so "flimsy" why did the white flag Democrats vote in favor of going to war in Iraq? Rangel says the evidence presented to Congress was flimsy. If so,why did so many Dems side with the President?

2. Why didn't they vote against the president when they had the chance?

3. Why didn't they tell the American people that the evidence was flimsy after they saw it?

4. Why does Rangel say the evidence was flimsy YEARS after the fact? Why wasn't his party saying this six years ago?

5. If it is not right to send people who VOLUNTEER to join the military to Iraq, how is going to be right to DRAFT people to go? If the evidence is too "flimsy" for volunteers, why is it suddenly strong enough to draft people?

Remember how some Democrats were using the draft as a scare tatic against Bush?

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.asp ... /reason926

Notice this:

On Capitol Hill, there are two pieces of legislation that propose a draft. The Senate version has seen no action. It was sponsored by Ernest “Fritz” Hollings, D-S.C., who is retiring and, no doubt, has his mind on lazy days in the Palmetto State.

The House version is the work of Rep. Charles Rangel, the intrepid New York Democrat, who really started this whole thing before the U.S. invaded Iraq.

BEFORE the U.S. invaded Iraq? Hmmm....

Asked on CBS' "Face the Nation" if he was still serious about the proposal for a universal draft he raised a couple of years ago, he said, "You bet your life. Underscore serious."

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," he said

Source: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlene ... rss&rpc=22

6. If the draft is about challanging Iran, NK, and sending more troops to Iraq as Rangel says, why was he calling for a draft BEFORE we invaded Iraq?

It's a shame no one will ever ask him about that "flimsy evidence" and why Democrats still voted to go into Iraq on TV so we could all hear his reply.


By the way, I thank you for your service. I'm not sure I would have had the guts to enlist, but I suppose that might have been better than just getting randomly drafted.


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 Post subject: Service
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:25 am 
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BDK, there are many people who deserve thanks for their service, I appreciate your thought, but I did nothing. After college I went to our family Dr., for a checkup. He asked if I wanted him to write a letter that would have negated service for me. I had a bad back, it sometimes bothers me now; but I played football all the way through school, skied etc. There was no way in good faith that I could take an out. I was not prowar, we had already been in Nam long enough to know it was bogus and I had studied it in school. But, with some gullible sense of fair play I just could not take the easy way out. I hated the military. Basic training wasn't as hard as football practice, but it was only negative. I really don't think the best way to lead or inspire people is to tell them they are worthless. Most of it washed off me as the drill sgts seemed so ludicrous, and inferior to the people I had been around at U.T. I saw blatant racism toward one black guy in our co. by the staff. I was about engaged to a bright and cute lady who is now a Dr. so leaving was a pain. I learned a little in tech school(mech) but got mono from lack of sleep. Our soldiers shot unarmed women and children at My Lai and students at Kent State and Jackson. Nixon and his gang of crooks were nothing to folow. It looks like Iraq has many of the same problems. I think it is my duty to speak out, and maybe save a few young soldiers.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:17 pm 
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Agreed! In war the consequences of errors and misjudgement are typically severe and permanent. I don't have the answers here, that's for sure, but I don't think we can back out now without even more severe repercussions.

Hopefully the military training regimen has improved since you were in!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:14 pm 
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Bill Moyer, 73, wears a "Hearing Protector" flap over his ear while Senator Ted Kennedy addresses the Veterans of Foreign Wars

Wonder where we can buy these. We will certainly need them for the next 2 to 6 years!!

Maybe they could make a whole series of these, like baseball cards. “I’ll trade you a Nancy Pelosi, a Howard Dean, and a John Murtha for a Charlie Rangel and a Barney Franks.”

All in good fun of course since us Libertarians (classical liberals) have such a good sense of humor... :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 10:05 am 
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bdk wrote:
Wonder where we can buy these. We will certainly need them for the next 2 to 6 years!!


You can get them from liberals who have been using them for the last six. But don't get a used one; many are nearing the end of their fatigue life, especially near the White House. :)

Of course, those ear plugs, no matter who wears them, sum up American politics these days: If it's not my viewpoint, I don't want to hear it.

August


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 Post subject: Ear muffs
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:49 am 
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Okay, BDK we'll score one pretty good laugh for you on that photo. Wonder if the vet would have worn them if the address had been given by Max Cleeland or JFK or Sen. McGovern? Actually I think Ted may have seen some tough duty, but mostly in pubs.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:50 pm 
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Well, unfortunately I wasn't able to use your comments since my professor says they are considered an "unreliable source."

Thanks for the comments.

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