Warbird Information Exchange

A good friend just wrote a great book on the Oregon Nat Guard's 2nd
Inf Battilion (The Devil's Sandbox go to [url]thedevilssandbox.com[/url])
These guys fought in all the major battles Iraq, came home and then went to New Orleans. Lots of very motivated college kids having a hard time completing their studies, high scool teachers, police officers, EMTs, coaches, mechanics and office pogues. So many varied backgrounds and levels of education coming together into a very cohesive unit considered the best Battalion in the Guard Organization. Maybe John Kerry should spend some time with them maybe something could rub off on him. 2 of their companies are in Afganistan right now.

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Don't touch my junk!!

Warbird Finder, It's fine to differ with what I wrote, but be honest enough not to distort it to something I did not say. I did not write, nor do I believe that atrocities were indicative of the whole military. And Doug I was also in the AF at that time, like Bush I could have voluntered for Nam and did not have the commitment or perhaps courage to go to combat. You can personally feel that Kerry or myself are jerks, but that will not change some things which are facts. Jack started this forum, I have responded to that. It does seem apparent that I'm in the minority in that I like Warbirds, but not war, and I feel a hero is more George McGovern or John McCain, rather then LBJ, Nixon, Bush(W) type.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Hi Bill,
I don't nor do think that anyone on the board think of you has a jerk. I myself just droll and think of you has the lucky SOB with the Spit in his hanger. I note that while Kerry appoligized for his bad joke, he didn't actually say that he didn't mean what he'd said but rather that he didn't want to be a destraction to his party at this time. If's that so he should just quite talking. My grandpa used to say "Keep your mouth shut and people can only assume your stupid. If you open it all doubt will be removed". Kerry should heed that. Has to his VN service all I'll say is to do some research and check the links I provided.

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Don't touch my junk!!

I think everyone here would agree with me when I say that I'm sick and tired of all the nasty mud-slinging political ads playing on TV (on both sides). It's to the point that I don't even want to turn on the television or the radio until after November 7th. Politics in America has turned into "Jerry Springer" overnight and it's making me sick.

It's too bad there isn't a law forbidding paid political ads 90 days before an election.

John

For the sake of discourse, let me offer two simple premises: I. Even the best wars, those fought for perhaps just reason and won by the moral side, are terrible. Civil War fought to end slavery cost a half milllion lives, runed some cities and resulted in Lincoln's death and poitical corruption in the South. Could the good have been achieved peacefully? WWII fought against Hitler, etc. cost 55 million lives, more than half of them innocent civilians, wrecked countries, developed Atomic weapons, and brought Stalin to the forefront of power. II. Our military people, especially the young men and now women, are a valuable asset which should not be wasted. So what did we get out of Vietnam for the 55,000 killed and 200, 000 wounded? What kind of barbaric fools did we have in govt. to drag this on so long, and for what? Now are we in the same situation in Iraq? I'm real familar with stay the course and such, by those safe in D C without life or limb in danger. Is there any real chance that the Sunnis are going to quit hating the Shiites or vice vers and both hating us. Is there any real likelihood that the Iraq army is going to take over the fighting from us, eatablish any sort of democratic free govt. and our people can come home without this having been a waste like Vietnam?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I certainly don't deny that atrocities happen in every war, but I suspect they happen far more often on "the other side" than on our side. You have a great number of people in a position to fear for their life. It can be far too easy to second guess, after the fact, what was going through thier mind at the time. I'm not excusing what happens, but as moral as I think I am, I'm not sure what I would do in some of those types of situations. They aren't always exactly like the playbook, especially when the other side frequently breaks the rules.

Regarding education, I know a few folks that have been USAF pilots. Isn't the quickest way to get a flying job to get a 4 year degree first? Can you be a US military pilot without a 4 year degree?

Again, a link to a story that plays into the "stay the course" discussion that I found interesting:

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20061024 ... -5244r.htm

I'd prefer this discussion to remain informative rather than turn into an overly emotional event. Not sure if this discussion can be moved into the off topic zone now or not once it has started here.

Hi Bill... I really appreciate your comments, and think that you wrote them in a calm, unjudgemental and informative manner. I agree with you whole-heartedly, and wanted to offer my support. I love this, my adopted country, dearly, but feel we have got way off-track in the last few years.

Kerry's comments were simple-headed... he should have known better, but the media have distorted those comments to imply all sorts of things that were not intended. Bush is a far bigger individual of questionable judgement though, and what his administration has done to the armed forces is a travesty. However, that is a topic which probably belongs elsewhere. I just wanted you to know that not all on this forum blindly follow the neo-con agenda.

All the best,
Richard

It's interesting to me how people can get so upset about a bad joke, not well told, taken out of context by someone who isn't even running for office in this election, and yet give such a pass to the Commander-in-Chief who is more interested in using our soldiers as props in photo-ops than in actually supporting them, either when they are fighting or when they come back home.
Remember the Annual Press Dinner a couple of years ago? Bush doing a skit looking for WMD's in the WHite House: Not here, maybe behind here. Very funny indeed especially as he knew there were no WMD's in Irag. What about the Secretary of State saying that thousands of tactical errors had been made, but no strategic ones! Talk about respecting the troops.
This is a great forum – except when people start talking politics.

Good grief.

You fellas need to take it easy on Bill - believe me there are PLENTY of US out here in WIX-land that are bleeding heart "kandy ass" liberals and thinking men to boot. Perhaps those of us that have a differing political views choose to keep our opinions to ourselves and prefer to talk airplanes on an airplane message board.

That being said, Kerry's comments are completely indefensible and although I can see the point he was "trying" to make I fully understand why he has quickly been pushed out the door from attending any more rallies speaking on behalf of Democratic candidates. I do question the DNC's wisdom in putting a guy "out front" that lost the last presidential election and proved to be such a devisive personality, seems like a recipe for disaster and sure enough it turned out that way.

I think it is hilarious that so many folks are going bananas over his unquestionably-boneheaded comments but they don't bat an eye supporting an administration that for the last two years has held fast onto boneheaded positions and policies. Like it or not, history will not be kind to GWB. I'm not saying for a second that Kerry was a better alternative in 2004 but we're in a bad spot with our boy W running the show. I'm moving to France with Alec Baldwin.

It wasn't a joke. It was meant to be a transparent attempt to take a hard slap at the Bush administration. THey forgot to Mention Bush at the beginning or end of the "joke." Furthermore, Kerry has handlers and speech writers that write for him and steer him from event to event.
It can be argued that they, the greater democratic party and his staff were insulting the military and military service. Historically, a place to go to get job skills, money for college, a way out of poverty, or a job when unemployment rates are sky high.
In Kerry's era, if you didn't study hard and get draft deferrments like CLinton and Cheney, then you were obligated to serve if you had a low draft number.
One thing I do agree with Bill G. it that war is despicable, and senseless and atrocities happen whenever society breaks down , which is what you have when you have war.

This is a great forum – except when people start talking politics.[/quote]

Agreed, so why inject more arguments to this "great forum"? While your points were well thought out, they were political and potentially provocative just the same. As far as this entire thread goes, it seems there's enough heated politics on TV, radio, blogs and newspapers to get a belly-full so please, let's leave the WIX out of it. Bill G's opinions of current events/history are articulate and impassioned whether you agree with him or not (I'm not saying whether I do/don't), but really I'm here to read about his experiences/impressions of flying the Spitfire--and the experiences of other warbird enthusiasts who maintain, fly, restore, research, and paint pictures of them (sorry if I left anyone out). That thread Bill did about comparing flying the P-51 to the Spitfire was riveting stuff and some of the best stick and rudder storytelling I've read in a long time--Bill, you should write a book if you haven't already! Anyway, this is supposed to be a fun, informative forum about warbirds--I humbly offer the opinion that while we can talk about anything here, it isn't an ideal forum to talk about politics any more than the golf course, the ball park, the race track or EAA/Oshkosh is--venues where one goes to be entertained and share common interests with other enthusiasts, not trade political barbs...then again it ain't my website so ultimately Scott's the referee and the boss that decides. Either way, it's a great forum with a wealth of knowledgable contributors and interesting warbird topics. I'll keep coming back even if we have to talk politics.

Don't mean to stir the pot any more than it already is but here's an interesting link to the Disabled American Vets website which breaks down the 109th Congress and the scores of both the house and senate. It's broken down by state so it's easy to see what score your particular elected official received when it comes to vets affairs.

http://capwiz.com/dav/scorecard.xc

If you do a quick average and compare the different parties you'll notice the Dems have an average score in the mid 80% range while many of the Repub's average score hovers around 50%. So much for the urban myth that Republicans support the troops more than the Dems.

If you also go on the IAVA website (Iraq & Afghanistan Vets of America) their numbers are also pretty consistant with the DAV's.

John

My squadron is average in the Air Force when it comes to post High School education levels. I did a little checking during lunch and found out a few things. Keep in mind that these people are deployed an average of 245 days a year.

E-1 through E-4 30 assigned to the squadron. 4 are actively working on Associate or Bachelors degree. 2 already have them. These are the guys that tend to do most of the flying and partying. They tend to worry less about the future but a few of them are getting all they can education wise and plan to leave the military after their enlistments.

E-5 through E-6 27 assigned, 8 are complete, 4 are actively working on Associate or Bachelors. 6 have a Bachelors. Most people in this category are looking towards the future and advancing their careers.

E-7 through E-9 8 assigned, 6 complete, 1 actively working on Bachelors degree. 1 of these individuals has a Master’s degree. These guys are all prepped for retirement or are planning to go as far as they can go up the food chain.

All officers have at least a bachelors degree, about a quarter of them are working on their masters, about fifteen percent of them have their masters. One or two are working on their PhDs. Education levels play into their career progression a lot more than it does for the enlisted guys.

Me personally, I’m an E-6. I’ve been two classes away from a degree for about fifteen years. Why? I was having too good of a time flying around the world to be bothered with school. I’ll never go above E-7 if I don’t have at least an associates and within two years, that is going to change to a bachelors. I’ll finish my education within the next five years, before I retire. I want to be an airplane mechanic when I grow up.

The first ten years I was in the Air Force, I very seldom saw any emphasis put on education. That has changed significantly in the last few years. I’ve known five enlisted guys that finished their degrees and became officers. I’ve know fifteen or twenty that did a lot of their school during their enlistment and then got out to finish their degrees. I don’t know a single person that came in without at least a High School education. I know a lot of people that ended their enlistments with a severe hatred of the US Military. But I don’t know a single one that thought they were shortchanged on their education benefits.

As far as what John Kerry said, well I don’t give a rat’s rear end. I think the man isn’t the brightest bulb in the light fixture, but that has nothing to do with Democrat versus Republican. I just don’t like him. I don’t know if meant to say what he said, but he said it and sure didn’t try to correct it until he was called out. I am pretty conservative about dang near everything but I still think the press is riding this pony for all it’s worth and am getting a little tired of it.

As far as who’s smarter, him or President Bush, once again, I don’t care. I work for whoever is in charge. I will say this though, for somebody that the rest of the world thinks is so stupid and bad at the job, he sure is popular with the military. We know he has made some mistakes, continues to make some mistakes and has done a lot that was right. Clinton, on the other hand, wasn’t liked at all!

I personally like to see everyone else's opinions as long as this doesn't degenerate into the crap you see on the flypast forum.

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Brad

Guys thanks for the comments and, some type of support. And JPeters, great facts, I sense our troops don't get the real financial and medical support(see USA Today article on Marine) but did not know the Dems were better than Reps. Some folks prefer slogans and name calling over facts and a genuine consideration of issues. T33, thanks years ago at U. of Texas I wrote a newpaper article that led to the founder of a new magazine asking me about writing for them. It was TEXAS MONTHLY, but I was too preocupied with football, a cheerleader, fast cars, oh and occaisonly studying to follow up. Anyway I sort of hoped I had some writing ability until I got on WIX and I couldn't even convince OZ that a Spitfire was better than a Beaufighter! I try in my posts to have humor, or on the serious subjects be fair and honest. I think I'm as patriotic as most, it is just that our govt and military etc. really ought to live up to our demacratic ideal of free speech & press, jury trials and the rest.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I mean geez all I did was post a picture!
I though was a interesting thread and everyone acted
pretty civilized. I've seen more animosity over a game
of croquet. You can hate the war, gov't, lawyers, newspaper,
politicians ect. all you want. Just as long has you support the
troops.

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Don't touch my junk!!