STALLS??? Woo-hoo...BFD

[b29flteng]

When I learned to fly (1975 in a Cessna 150) about my fourth hour of flight we did some spins, it was GREAT! We did spin often after that. Later on I purchased a Cessna 120 and one of the things I would practice is take it to altitude and stall the plane and keep it stalled with the wheel all the way back keeping the wings level by using the rudder only. I could lose several thousand feet at a time like a falling leaf. It was good practice for using the rudder. One safety thing my instructor hammered into my head, "Your not a test pilot" meaning don't do anything stupid!

[b29flteng]

When I learned to fly (1975 in a Cessna 150) about my fourth hour of flight we did some spins, it was GREAT! We did spin often after that. Later on I purchased a Cessna 120 and one of the things I would practice is take it to altitude and stall the plane and keep it stalled with the wheel all the way back keeping the wings level by using the rudder only. I could lose several thousand feet at a time like a falling leaf. It was good practice for using the rudder. One safety thing my instructor hammered into my head, "Your not a test pilot" meaning don't do anything stupid!

[Bill Greenwood]

Basic acro training is fine, but you don't need it at your stage of training yet. When you do it, wear a chute, and yes I know the law says you don't have to with a CFI, but the law of gravity is not impressed with CFIs. Ideal spin training might be a basic acro course in a Stearman, etc. Most people get dizzy pretty quick tho. For now, you need to recognize when you are near a stall, by the feel of the plane, and how many gs you pull vs how much airspeed. You learn not to go there except, for practice, and that recovery must be to unload the gs, the back pressure or the bank, INSTANTLY. If the turn is coordinated and the plane is in rig, the stall should be simple and just drop toward the bottom of the plane. A priceless advanced training technique is to go up in a T-6 and do a power on, cross crontrol, accelerated g stall. You learn you don't want to do this turnign base to final. And practice all this up HIGH. I wouldn't do a spin at 2000', I don't care if Patty Waqgstaff is flying.

[Mudge]

Parachute wouldn't do me a bit of good in a Warrior. The instructor is between me and the only way out. He is, however, smaller than I am. If it comes down to him or me.....

Mudge the sacrificial

[Bill Greenwood]

Good spin training would be to do it in something that really spins, a Stearman, Decatalon, etc. and do it up high and wear a chute, you and the guy who is between you and the door. At Flighsafety 2 CFIs spun a Cherokee all the way down, had time to talk on the radio, but no chutes.Can you tread air? I have spun the Spitfire at 12,000 AGL, and my Cub and a T-34 above 5000'. There are different kinds of stalls and different responses and warnings. Some training gliders will barely stall, a T-6 with the swept wing or a P-51 are not as forgiving and don't give as much warning as the Spit.The point is to learn not to stall it unintentionally, and to unlode the gs if you get close.

[Stephanie]

Mudge,

Just thought that I would tell you, I've really enjoyed your posts on the progress of your flight training. A lot of us have been where you are before, but at least for me, it's fun to read what you're up to, where you are in the training, how you're liking it, etc. Keep up the good work. I really enjoyed doing stalls!!! Whee! Thanks for keeping us up to date!

Stephanie (...the interested)

[engguy]

I would have liked a parachute when flying, but still I felt safer spinning that 150 than I would now flying in a commercial plane. Like in flight 800 if everyone had a parachute someone may have made it. Nowadays I would want a chute in any plane, guess that is what age does.
Talking about someone grabbing the controls in a spin, I did a no no back in my early flying days. I took a friend of my brother up and showed him a spin. I told him to keep his hands off the controls and how the plane will go upside down at first. As I started going in the spin he grabbed for the controls, I was watching him and took my right arm and swung and knocked him back into the seat and yelled "don't touch that ". I agree with Retro you need to find out what unusuall attitudes are like. I had a highschool friend that wanted to become an airline pilot, till he had an incident and almost crashed. He hasn't flown a plane since. If he would have known what to do in a spin and what it was like to be upside down and be comfortable in those attitudes, he could have used his head instead of overwhelming fear and panick. Its kinda like people that can't drive a car on ice. They think that brake pedal is the cure all.
In your fixed wing aircraft, airspeed is most important gauge you have,
and knowing at what speed it will stall and at what attitude.

[oscardeuce]

I'll add my thoughts also. The spin/unusual attitude trainiing is a must before going out on your own. Like was said, Stearman, Decathalon, Citabria all fun to fly and even better to lean a bit of the "great uhgknown" in. Wait to you solo and are toward the end of your training. You could even work in the tailwheel time to become a real aviator. I did my spin training in a Steen Skybolt.

[King]

I just find it hard to believe that spin training is not required anymore. I learned to spin the 152 very early in training. That was practically how we ended every day in the plane.

My wife started her flying last summer (in between the other students as she is the FBO manager and the money makers come first), and she has spun our new 172. Plus, she has been trained to pull the power back a little, trim the nose up and let the airplane chug along while descending very slowly.

That is some good flight instruction.

[leo]

I flew sailplanes for many years. As soon as I could fly straight and complete a coordinated turn we were into incipient stalls, deep stalls and spins. My instructor insisted as he was a champion of agressive soaring. I also got a little tast of unusual attitudes, mainly as a result of messing up recoveries. It proved invaluble later when I was perfecting my thermalling techniques, I was never scared and always knew (more or less) how to get out of any situation I got into.
When I went for my private much later I was amazed at how sedate the training was in comparison. It was more avoidance than recovery.
Not bashing, it was just different. I value the training I got in the sailplanes.

[King]

I flew sailplanes for many years. As soon as I could fly straight and complete a coordinated turn we were into incipient stalls, deep stalls and spins. My instructor insisted as he was a champion of agressive soaring. I also got a little tast of unusual attitudes, mainly as a result of messing up recoveries. It proved invaluble later when I was perfecting my thermalling techniques, I was never scared and always knew (more or less) how to get out of any situation I got into.
When I went for my private much later I was amazed at how sedate the training was in comparison. It was more avoidance than recovery.
Not bashing, it was just different. I value the training I got in the sailplanes.

Sailplanes and thermaling are a recipe for disaster if you have not been trained in that area. Most people don't realize what it is like to be in a thermal with 20 or 30 other sailplanes and the guy at top stalls out and spins down through the rest of the group.

[skybolt2003]

Sailplanes and thermaling are a recipe for disaster if you have not been trained in that area. Most people don't realize what it is like to be in a thermal with 20 or 30 other sailplanes and the guy at top stalls out and spins down through the rest of the group.[/quote]

Well that's where I come from. I think our mudge will be okay soloing the PA-28 without unusual attitude and spin recovery training, but I do think he will benefit from it down the line. If he were about to solo something more prone to spinning (like a long-winged glider or a Stearman) I'd say do it for sure.

Of course even in benign planes you can get bitten - I had a bunch of acro time and felt pretty confident, I took a friend who was pretty large up in a Super Cub, which I had a bunch of time in. He was a pilot too and very cocky, although not as experienced, I thought to myself, 'I'll really whring him out' (which in itself should be taken as a warning sign . . .) I got up a little speed, then pulled the nose up, rolled it onto it's back and started to pull it into a spit 'S. All of a sudden I was looking straight down in a nice old spin. I was surprised that I had no warning and also how, even though I knew immediately what was going on, it still took a few seconds (or seemed to ) to comprehend that I was actually in this situation. It was like "hmm. . .We're spinning. How'd that happen?" Luckily I had the training to do what was required and it was a non-event, althoug a wakeup call to me that a plane really behaves differently in different situations. In my case, a more rearward cg than I was used to.

[Bill Greenwood]

What is the logic behind not requiring spin training? 1st, Unlike a training spin up high with foresight; if you get in one by surprise without warning, perhaps at 500' turning base to final you aren't likely to recover no matter what. Good stall recognition and avoidance training can prevent the spin; that is, no stall-no spin. Both of these have some logic. Modern trainers, 172 etc. may be less likely to spin than the rudder planes of years ago. Some think that spin training may cause more losses than they save. Few schools have parachutes anymore, and some planes prohibit spins unlike the Cubs, Stearmans of the old days. A normal student, in average flying in a 172 or similar is unlikely to get in a spin. My advice to a student is be REALLY GOOD in your ground study and flight training on stall avoidance, recognition, and recovery so it is 2nd nature. Next, when and if you have time, and a little money, go do some spin training. A couple of hours is enough, do a few each way, see that the entry can be darn disorienting,(rolls as well as yaws) and learn how to recover: power off, opposite rudder, release back pressure. It is just 1 more thing good to know for a pilot. Now if you are going to fly a sport plane, or a fighter or something fun where you are going to do acro or pull Gs,the stall training becomes VITAL and the spin experience important.

[bdk]

If he were about to solo something more prone to spinning (like a long-winged glider or a Stearman) I'd say do it for sure.

Since when is a Stearman prone to spinning in normal flight regimes? Mine took a lot of agressive pro-spin control input to induce a spin.

[JDK]

What is the logic behind not requiring spin training?

I think the logic is similar to why it's not normal to learn how to control skids as part of your pre-qualification driving training.

Don't think ignorance is generally a good idea, and I'd like to learn...