Bill Lear Jr. Mustang - Iceland Crash 1963
Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:13 am
In the June 2005 edition of the EAA Warbirds magazine on page 44 there is a photograph of some Mustang wreckage which has the following caption and I quote;
"N251L, 44-63864, crashed in Iceland in June 1963. This wreckage is owned by Stephen Gray, and parts will be incorporated into the rebuild of his Mustang G-CBNM."
This article is available on the web.
FITD
"N251L, 44-63864, crashed in Iceland in June 1963. This wreckage is owned by Stephen Gray, and parts will be incorporated into the rebuild of his Mustang G-CBNM."
This article is available on the web.
FITD
Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:16 am
Sometime in the late eighties I visited Reykjavik airport (BIRK) and on the South side, behind a hangar I saw remains of a crashed P-51. Earlier on this thread it has been said that Bill Lear Jr's P-51 crashed and was stored at Keflavik (BIKF). So was the one I saw another P-51, or were the remains of Lear's P-51 moved to Reykjavik, or did the accident happen at Reykjavik, not at Keflavik?
Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:37 am
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:13 am Post subject: Bill Lear Jr. Mustang - Iceland Crash 1963
In the June 2005 edition of the EAA Warbirds magazine on page 44 there is a photograph of some Mustang wreckage which has the following caption and I quote;
"N251L, 44-63864, crashed in Iceland in June 1963. This wreckage is owned by Stephen Gray, and parts will be incorporated into the rebuild of his Mustang G-CBNM."
This article is available on the web.
FITD
This is false info, mistakenly given by Dick Phillips, which he corrected in the following issue.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:16 am Post subject:
Sometime in the late eighties I visited Reykjavik airport (BIRK) and on the South side, behind a hangar I saw remains of a crashed P-51. Earlier on this thread it has been said that Bill Lear Jr's P-51 crashed and was stored at Keflavik (BIKF). So was the one I saw another P-51, or were the remains of Lear's P-51 moved to Reykjavik, or did the accident happen at Reykjavik, not at Keflavik?
You did indeed see N251L! It was at Reykjavik, where the accident happend, and not Keflavik. It also, was not moved until 1991, when Cham Gill purchased it from the country of Iceland. Do you have any photos? Do you remember seeing a data tag?!
The published histories for this aircraft are indeed very screwed up do to the confusion of the second airplane(G-CBNM) using 44-63864.
The question is, who has the real metal of the Twighlight Tear?
The facts of our airframe: N251L
1. All paperwork(IDAF bill of sale and registration) claims the airframe we have is 44-63864. Lear Jr. says there was no switching of data tags or components when he purchased the airplane and his airplane was indeed that serial number. -Still allows the possiblity of the paper work being switched previously- But why?
2. Our fuselage has the screw holes of a Swedish data tag. Located just aft of the aircorp data tag in the right hand of the cockpit. This was shown in a picture of the P-51 in Paris(which was a Swedish airplane) on a previous thread talking about this debate here on WIX.(can't find the picture again)
3. Our wing has the wing of an airplane that also flew at Duxford and was in a ground accident 3 weeks before 44-63864 was in a ground loop accident. (which we have the accident report from, report claimed 44-63864 required replacement of wing)
more to come!
Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:29 pm
Warhawks1 wrote:2. Our fuselage has the screw holes of a Swedish data tag. Located just aft of the aircorp data tag in the right hand of the cockpit. This was shown in a picture of the P-51 in Paris(which was a Swedish airplane) on a previous thread talking about this debate here on WIX.(can't find the picture again)
Here is the picture of the data plates in 44-63871 A.K.A 26039 in the Swedish Air Force
Laurent
Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:18 pm
Pic of the Vertical with N-number.
Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:38 am
Hi Eric,
Have you considered very carefully removing the paint off the vertical to see what marks might be left behind on the bare aluminum? I remember seeing pictures of Roger Christguas Sierra Sue II totally stripped to the bare aluminum and "Ghost prints" of the original WWII markings were quite clear and evident.
John
PS: When I was up in Wahpeton a couple weekends ago Marky and I were discussing your time struggle with the P-38. He and I both mentioned something about needing a break and offering some of our vacation time to come out and give you hand....that is of course if you need it! Drop me a private message if you're interested.
Have you considered very carefully removing the paint off the vertical to see what marks might be left behind on the bare aluminum? I remember seeing pictures of Roger Christguas Sierra Sue II totally stripped to the bare aluminum and "Ghost prints" of the original WWII markings were quite clear and evident.
John
PS: When I was up in Wahpeton a couple weekends ago Marky and I were discussing your time struggle with the P-38. He and I both mentioned something about needing a break and offering some of our vacation time to come out and give you hand....that is of course if you need it! Drop me a private message if you're interested.
Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:30 pm
You did indeed see N251L! It was at Reykjavik, where the accident happend, and not Keflavik. It also, was not moved until 1991, when Cham Gill purchased it from the country of Iceland
I posted this correction in error before I looked at my notes. The airplane actualy crashed and remained at Keflavik. Sorry!
Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:06 pm
Erik-
I've totally struck out with getting someone to translate that P-51 Article in Hebrew... the last try, fellow took a copy and I just never heard back from him....
Maybe somebody on this list can translate hebrew.....
scott
I've totally struck out with getting someone to translate that P-51 Article in Hebrew... the last try, fellow took a copy and I just never heard back from him....
Maybe somebody on this list can translate hebrew.....
scott
Bill Lear Mustang
Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:32 pm
Folks,
Provenance means nothing...........
Let me tell you a tale of woe.
I purchased an L-19A from Mr Birdog in 1996 with my partner through a good friend who knew Minard. The aircraft was shipped out here in 1996.
There is a continuous trail of ownership US Army, (crashed then sold surplus), owner in Alabama, (pics show the aircraft including the serial no in his backyard), sold to Vocational School, sold to farmer who operated a scrap dealership in Kansas (Flying -N-Ranch), sold to Minard, sold to Gordon Glynn (my friend) who acquired the aircraft for my partner and I. Minards book on the Birdog in its breakdown of serials etc clearly shows it was resident in Australia. The book was published in 1998. Papers from Minard show its lineage, papers from Flying-N- Ranch detail its sale to Minard, Shipping documents, Customs documents and Bill of Sale indicate the aircraft's military serial as 51-4635 and confirm Cessna serial 21520. The Mod plate identifies it as 51-4635. The Commercial Invoice for the sale of the aircraft to Gordon Glynn has an embedded image of the aircraft Mod Plate showing it to be 51-4635. Gordon Glynn travelled to the USA on behalf of my partner and I in 1996 and directly supervised and participated in the loading and shipping of the aircraft from Seattle to Australia. He also filled out some of the shipping documents that identify the aircraft. He has provided a Statutory Declaration to that effect.
US Department of Transportation "AIRCRAFT BILL OF SALE" Form 8050-2 filled out by Minard and sent to the FAA in 1996 detailing that Cessna L-19 serial, 21520 sold to Gordon Glynn on 30th January 1996. Remember 1996! The FAA were aware since 1996 that the aircraft has been sold and exported out of the USA.
No data plate attached to my machine after all those changes of ownership but it had its Mod Status plate fitted that clearly identified it as 51-4635, identified the military contract number for the aircraft and the aircraft Type. It also had the Cessna Acceptance stamps.
Aircraft stored pending rebuild here. Parts purchased, engine acquired and overhauled etc.
Application to CASA for registration in 2006 refused as "51-4635" registered in the USA. No Cert of Airworthiness but registered.
Search by Minard indicates that the "owner" in Enterprise, Alabama, has a fuselage, obtained a statement from a disposal yard that it was 51-4635, and on this basis, and without any other "hard" evidence, approached Cessna and was given a replacement Data Plate for 51-4635.
As the L-19 is not Type Certified Cessna apparently were not worried about issuing a replacement plate. This is confirmed by CASA officials here. Had the L-19 been a Type Certified aircraft, the situation would have been far different. (I am lead to believe).
The "owner" of 51-4635 in the USA fills out the forms and, with his bright shiny new data plate from Cessna, has the aircraft registered by the FAA as N4622 in 2004 despite the fact that the FAA was aware from its own records that the aircraft had been sold to Australia and exported some eight years previously
I have visited our CASA Head Ofice in Canberra and they are attempting to have the FAA investigate the matter.
For those who may think that the seller of the aircraft may have taken advantage of the distance between Australia and the USA - think again, Minard is an employee of the FAA and well acquainted with the proceedures (and penalties) involved in the falsification of documents.
Put yourself in my position where I have something I know is genuine, can prove its provenance but (unless the FAA finds otherwise) cannot be resistered as an aircraft here.......... lots of money has passed under the bridge acquiring parts. I cannot just "pick" another identity out of the air as CASA here is aware of the aircraft and the problems. Moreover, by doing that I may be affecting someone else who owns the "real" aircraft whose identity I may have chosen to represent.
Watch this space.
Provenance means nothing...........
Let me tell you a tale of woe.
I purchased an L-19A from Mr Birdog in 1996 with my partner through a good friend who knew Minard. The aircraft was shipped out here in 1996.
There is a continuous trail of ownership US Army, (crashed then sold surplus), owner in Alabama, (pics show the aircraft including the serial no in his backyard), sold to Vocational School, sold to farmer who operated a scrap dealership in Kansas (Flying -N-Ranch), sold to Minard, sold to Gordon Glynn (my friend) who acquired the aircraft for my partner and I. Minards book on the Birdog in its breakdown of serials etc clearly shows it was resident in Australia. The book was published in 1998. Papers from Minard show its lineage, papers from Flying-N- Ranch detail its sale to Minard, Shipping documents, Customs documents and Bill of Sale indicate the aircraft's military serial as 51-4635 and confirm Cessna serial 21520. The Mod plate identifies it as 51-4635. The Commercial Invoice for the sale of the aircraft to Gordon Glynn has an embedded image of the aircraft Mod Plate showing it to be 51-4635. Gordon Glynn travelled to the USA on behalf of my partner and I in 1996 and directly supervised and participated in the loading and shipping of the aircraft from Seattle to Australia. He also filled out some of the shipping documents that identify the aircraft. He has provided a Statutory Declaration to that effect.
US Department of Transportation "AIRCRAFT BILL OF SALE" Form 8050-2 filled out by Minard and sent to the FAA in 1996 detailing that Cessna L-19 serial, 21520 sold to Gordon Glynn on 30th January 1996. Remember 1996! The FAA were aware since 1996 that the aircraft has been sold and exported out of the USA.
No data plate attached to my machine after all those changes of ownership but it had its Mod Status plate fitted that clearly identified it as 51-4635, identified the military contract number for the aircraft and the aircraft Type. It also had the Cessna Acceptance stamps.
Aircraft stored pending rebuild here. Parts purchased, engine acquired and overhauled etc.
Application to CASA for registration in 2006 refused as "51-4635" registered in the USA. No Cert of Airworthiness but registered.
Search by Minard indicates that the "owner" in Enterprise, Alabama, has a fuselage, obtained a statement from a disposal yard that it was 51-4635, and on this basis, and without any other "hard" evidence, approached Cessna and was given a replacement Data Plate for 51-4635.
As the L-19 is not Type Certified Cessna apparently were not worried about issuing a replacement plate. This is confirmed by CASA officials here. Had the L-19 been a Type Certified aircraft, the situation would have been far different. (I am lead to believe).
The "owner" of 51-4635 in the USA fills out the forms and, with his bright shiny new data plate from Cessna, has the aircraft registered by the FAA as N4622 in 2004 despite the fact that the FAA was aware from its own records that the aircraft had been sold to Australia and exported some eight years previously
I have visited our CASA Head Ofice in Canberra and they are attempting to have the FAA investigate the matter.
For those who may think that the seller of the aircraft may have taken advantage of the distance between Australia and the USA - think again, Minard is an employee of the FAA and well acquainted with the proceedures (and penalties) involved in the falsification of documents.
Put yourself in my position where I have something I know is genuine, can prove its provenance but (unless the FAA finds otherwise) cannot be resistered as an aircraft here.......... lots of money has passed under the bridge acquiring parts. I cannot just "pick" another identity out of the air as CASA here is aware of the aircraft and the problems. Moreover, by doing that I may be affecting someone else who owns the "real" aircraft whose identity I may have chosen to represent.
Watch this space.
Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:53 am
We have the same concern as Mustang51. That is why I'm bringing up the topic. Hopefully people can help us with more info.
Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:21 am
Warhawks1 wrote:We have the same concern as Mustang51. That is why I'm bringing up the topic. Hopefully people can help us with more info.
On the other hand, I know of at least one Mustang owner who was able to have the Serial Number of his aircraft corrected with the FAA registration after simply showing the "radio call" tag in the cockpit.
I think this is a gray area...I think that a visit with the FSDO and showing the chain of ownership might be just what the doc ordered. There are plenty of aircraft flying out there with "replaced" ID tags!
Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:35 am
within the next fews days, I will get a set of original slides of N251L taken at Luxembourg..... 
stay tuned !
Martin
stay tuned !
Martin
Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:51 am
Data plate says nothing. I have one and the aircraft is still in operational service! Does that mean the military has to give it to me? Afterall, I bought the plate honestly from a government scrap auction, And I have heard people say that if you own the plate, you basically own the aircraft 
Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:00 pm
Reading all this I should be the owner of all what's left (wherever) of a 357th FG Mustang (wing failure during a dogfight) as I have the factory cockpit data plate...
Take care,
Paul
Take care,
Paul
Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:06 pm
Remember, it takes BOTH the dataplate AND the clear title/chain of ownership.