Re: NMUSAF Research
Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:36 pm
mike furline wrote:Yep, It's all my fault.
And that's not what I said, either! So much anger!
I took the time out from my own research to try and explain some of the background to why some of these things are the way they are - I did have better things to do. Your reaction's understandable, but, as I tried to say, there's good reasons why you got the response you did, hence my post. If you can't communicate without four letter words or *** I don't see why the conversation need continue. OK, breathe.
(That's for both of us.)Let's see if we can make it a bit more constructive, rather than raging against when we can't have what we want. What is it you are after?
You've said you are interested in German gunsights - great - there's a bit out there on the area, and a number of experts. What d'you want to know? Maybe you can get some answers here, or some pointers. I'd be delighted to help if I can, but it's not my area. That said, I do have some ideas of where else might help...
mike furline wrote:I understand no museum has it's entire collection on display, but if you can't ever get an appointment to see it whats the point of having it?
Um, because you can rotate stuff that is on display? That not everything can be on display doesn't mean it should be chucked? One day, with museum expansion, they will be on display? And so on. You know, that really, don't you.
Let's move on. What do you want to know about these sights?
Cheers
Re: NMUSAF Research
Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:18 pm
JDK wrote:mike furline wrote:Yep, It's all my fault.
And that's not what I said, either! So much anger!
I took the time out from my own research to try and explain some of the background to why some of these things are the way they are - I did have better things to do. Your reaction's understandable, but, as I tried to say, there's good reasons why you got the response you did, hence my post. If you can't communicate without four letter words or *** I don't see why the conversation need continue. OK, breathe.
Let's see if we can make it a bit more constructive, rather than raging against when we can't have what we want. What is it you are after?
You've said you are interested in German gunsights - great - there's a bit out there on the area, and a number of experts. What d'you want to know? Maybe you can get some answers here, or some pointers. I'd be delighted to help if I can, but it's not my area. That said, I do have some ideas of where else might help...mike furline wrote:I understand no museum has it's entire collection on display, but if you can't ever get an appointment to see it whats the point of having it?
Um, because you can rotate stuff that is on display? That not everything can be on display doesn't mean it should be chucked? One day, with museum expansion, they will be on display? And so on. You know, that really, don't you.
Let's move on. What do you want to know about these sights?
Cheers
Rage, anger??? Not sure where the communication breakdown is?
Sorry if my 4 letter word hurt your feelings. I used it as an example of what "I didn't do".
I don't suggest chucking anything. I certainly don't control the rotation schedule of items. No time schedule was given in the response. Will it be in my life time?
Perhaps they don't have any Luftwaffe sights. A simple, "We have no German sights or documents" would have sufficed. No answer as to what they have or don't have was given.
I simply was blown off after following thier steps to get access to the collection. Same story for the NASM. If you're plain Joe Citizen, you're out of luck.
As I said earlier, the RAF Museum was more than helpful. In the past when I've contacted The Planes of Fame & The Champlin Fighter Museum I've had Mr. Maloney & Mr. Champlin call me back personally. I've even had Barrett Tillman return my calls. All great gentlemen!
Since you are eager to help, I am looking for tech. documents and pictures for the Revi 3c-d & EZ42 series of sights?
Regards,
Mike
Last edited by mike furline on Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:30 pm
Hey Mike the only thing I can really say is that you have to consider how many requests the museum gets. Every day, hundreds. I am not saying that they handled your case right, just stating a little something from seeing first hand how many people want stuff for research, models, and what not.
Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:37 pm
mustangdriver wrote:Hey Mike the only thing I can really say is that you have to consider how many requests the museum gets. Every day, hundreds. I am not saying that they handled your case right, just stating a little something from seeing first hand how many people want stuff for research, models, and what not.
I understand that they're busy. An appointment a year from now would have been fine.
Regards,
Mike
Thu Mar 29, 2007 12:32 am
Hi Mike,
My feeling's aren't hurt, and I'm not the one having a problem here, either. I am losing interest in trying to help. Anyone starts using language like that in an archive - certainly one I was running - they get shown the door.
Seems a lack of clarity - are you saying that your request was refused to make an appointment to see what they have in the document library? Or that you were refused access to the reserve collection / store? You didn't say you'd been refused in your original post.
If you can't make an appointment to use the research facility - the library, that seems extremely odd.
What did you ask for?
My feeling's aren't hurt, and I'm not the one having a problem here, either. I am losing interest in trying to help. Anyone starts using language like that in an archive - certainly one I was running - they get shown the door.
Seems a lack of clarity - are you saying that your request was refused to make an appointment to see what they have in the document library? Or that you were refused access to the reserve collection / store? You didn't say you'd been refused in your original post.
If you can't make an appointment to use the research facility - the library, that seems extremely odd.
What did you ask for?
Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:34 am
JDK wrote:Hi Mike,
My feeling's aren't hurt, and I'm not the one having a problem here, either. I am losing interest in trying to help. Anyone starts using language like that in an archive - certainly one I was running - they get shown the door.
Seems a lack of clarity - are you saying that your request was refused to make an appointment to see what they have in the document library? Or that you were refused access to the reserve collection / store? You didn't say you'd been refused in your original post.
If you can't make an appointment to use the research facility - the library, that seems extremely odd.
What did you ask for?
Exactly what language and what archive are you referring too? Are you misinterpreting this free speech forum as an archive? I'm sure your not running any archive that I've visited.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can be?
My letter was simple and to the point. I would like to research Luftwaffe a/c gunsights. Commonly called "Revi" i.e. Revi 3, ReviC/12D, Revi 16, etc.. Would you have any gunsights or documents pertaining to them in the collection that I could review?
And now I will refer you to my first post where I posted the response.
No answers, no dates, no times, no nothing.
Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:54 am
Actually Mike, it was not at all clear from your first response that your request was denied, because you posted only excerpts of the response and did not tell us whether there were "No answers, no dates, no times, no nothing" in the portions you did not excerpt. In fact I am interested in what they did say, because the language they used might leave the door open for you to amend your request.
And it is clear to me that your request needs to be amended, because it is still very vague. Your most detailed statement of what you seek, elicited by repeated requests from JDK, is "I would like to research Luftwaffe a/c gunsights. Commonly called "Revi" i.e. Revi 3, ReviC/12D, Revi 16, etc.. Would you have any gunsights or documents pertaining to them in the collection that I could review?" It covers a broad range of hardware and gives no indication what it is about the hardware you are interested in (e.g. social/human aspects of development process, technical details, operational applications and results, etc.). Also you do not state why you are doing the research. The museum could therefore easily interpret your request as, "I'm interested in everything about these gunsights, just would like to have a look around and see what I can learn." That type of request, while not illegitimate, is also not serious or of any public benefit and I would expect it to be accorded such a low priority that, realistically, it would never be granted. You need to show that your interest is more focused and serious than that interpretation, assuming that it is.
It is unfortunate that you have to build a case for access to the collection but the point has been effectively made here that such access is a scarce resource that must be rationed in a way that maximizes public benefit. I have been afforded access to the USAFM library (I never sought access to the artifact collection) in the past when I had a publication project going, and where there is a discernable public benefit I have been treated very well, receiving the personal attention of Dave Menard, one of the rock stars of aviation history scholarship, in the same way that you have with Maloney, Champlin, etc., and it really did not take much in the way of narrowing my subject or pointing to a public benefit to lift my request above the vast majority of inquiries they receive.
So I really suggest that you try again, and it is probably best to continue to do it in writing so that you can lay out your argument better and not have to repeat it to multiple people. It may also be easier in writing to control the tone of indignation and entitlement which will be counterproductive.
August
And it is clear to me that your request needs to be amended, because it is still very vague. Your most detailed statement of what you seek, elicited by repeated requests from JDK, is "I would like to research Luftwaffe a/c gunsights. Commonly called "Revi" i.e. Revi 3, ReviC/12D, Revi 16, etc.. Would you have any gunsights or documents pertaining to them in the collection that I could review?" It covers a broad range of hardware and gives no indication what it is about the hardware you are interested in (e.g. social/human aspects of development process, technical details, operational applications and results, etc.). Also you do not state why you are doing the research. The museum could therefore easily interpret your request as, "I'm interested in everything about these gunsights, just would like to have a look around and see what I can learn." That type of request, while not illegitimate, is also not serious or of any public benefit and I would expect it to be accorded such a low priority that, realistically, it would never be granted. You need to show that your interest is more focused and serious than that interpretation, assuming that it is.
It is unfortunate that you have to build a case for access to the collection but the point has been effectively made here that such access is a scarce resource that must be rationed in a way that maximizes public benefit. I have been afforded access to the USAFM library (I never sought access to the artifact collection) in the past when I had a publication project going, and where there is a discernable public benefit I have been treated very well, receiving the personal attention of Dave Menard, one of the rock stars of aviation history scholarship, in the same way that you have with Maloney, Champlin, etc., and it really did not take much in the way of narrowing my subject or pointing to a public benefit to lift my request above the vast majority of inquiries they receive.
So I really suggest that you try again, and it is probably best to continue to do it in writing so that you can lay out your argument better and not have to repeat it to multiple people. It may also be easier in writing to control the tone of indignation and entitlement which will be counterproductive.
August
Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:59 am
August,
Exactly where is the indignation and entitlement in this request?
"I would like to research Luftwaffe a/c gunsights. Commonly called "Revi" i.e. Revi 3, ReviC/12D, Revi 16, etc.. Would you have any gunsights or documents pertaining to them in the collection that I could review?"
I was hoping to get a list or general idea of what they may have in the collection from my request. As opposed to writing seperate letters for lets say, do you have any tech. documents for a Revi 3c, do you have any tech. documents for the Revi 3d, and on and on and on for each sight.
There where very few types of Luftwaffe gunsights used in WWII, perhaps 4 or 5 main types with a few sub types of each. I felt it wasn't that vague.
And why would my attempt for personal education not be of a series nature or of any public benefit? Should the quest for personal knowledge have less importance than a publisher? Perhaps I'll write a book on the subject in the future, but that would be difficult without gathering information first. Are you suggesting I lie and make up a story about an article?
I want to thank you for taking time to respond to my post. Perhaps in person you are a nicer fellow than you appear to be from your typed words.
Mike
Exactly where is the indignation and entitlement in this request?
"I would like to research Luftwaffe a/c gunsights. Commonly called "Revi" i.e. Revi 3, ReviC/12D, Revi 16, etc.. Would you have any gunsights or documents pertaining to them in the collection that I could review?"
I was hoping to get a list or general idea of what they may have in the collection from my request. As opposed to writing seperate letters for lets say, do you have any tech. documents for a Revi 3c, do you have any tech. documents for the Revi 3d, and on and on and on for each sight.
There where very few types of Luftwaffe gunsights used in WWII, perhaps 4 or 5 main types with a few sub types of each. I felt it wasn't that vague.
And why would my attempt for personal education not be of a series nature or of any public benefit? Should the quest for personal knowledge have less importance than a publisher? Perhaps I'll write a book on the subject in the future, but that would be difficult without gathering information first. Are you suggesting I lie and make up a story about an article?
I want to thank you for taking time to respond to my post. Perhaps in person you are a nicer fellow than you appear to be from your typed words.
Mike
Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:11 am
mike furline wrote:Exactly where is the indignation and entitlement in this request?
Nowhere, but it is all over your posts in this thread. Just like the vulgarity that JDK referred to, neither of us is saying that you have expressed these in your communications with the museum but we are concerned that you might.
Your other questions, I think, have been answered already. I'm trying to help you get the access you want, not tell you why things "should" be the way they are.
mike furline wrote:I want to thank you for taking time to respond to my post. Perhaps in person you are a nicer fellow than you appear to be from your typed words.
Nope, this is pretty much what I'm like. Good luck with your project.
August
Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:32 pm
k5083 wrote:mike furline wrote:Exactly where is the indignation and entitlement in this request?
Nowhere, but it is all over your posts in this thread. Just like the vulgarity that JDK referred to, neither of us is saying that you have expressed these in your communications with the museum but we are concerned that you might.
Thank you for your concern. It warms my heart to know that you're looking out for me. Please take some time out of your day and worry about yourself and what you might say.
Your other questions, I think, have been answered already. I'm trying to help you get the access you want, not tell you why things "should" be the way they are.mike furline wrote:I want to thank you for taking time to respond to my post. Perhaps in person you are a nicer fellow than you appear to be from your typed words.
Nope, this is pretty much what I'm like. Good luck with your project.
I know, how sad.
August
Have a nice day.
Speaking for NASM.....
Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:26 pm
Hi Mike and Folks,
I could not help but note the line in Mike's original posting in which he said that he "...got the same runaround from NASM."
If that happened, I would be very grateful to know the circumstances. It is an item of faith with my unit, the NASM Archives Division Reference and Research Team that (a) we are open to EVERYONE on an equal and equitable basis and (b) if you all us at 202-633-2320 or 202-633-2315, you will talk to a human being. Having said that, you also ought to know that, because we sometimes have as many as 130,000 folks a day in our flagship building in downtown DC, and we only have 15 table spaces in our downtown Reading Room, the math is pretty obvious. At or Bldg.12 unit at the old Paul E. Garber Restoration and Storage Facility in Suitland, MD (about 7 miles as the crow flies from downtown) where 80+% of our collections are housed, in a highly controlled environment, we have only two (2) seats for researchers. We are peddling really hard to fix that by building Phase 2 of the Udvar-Hazy Center near Dulles International Airport, but even if we had all the bucks we need (yes, we are paying for this through private donations, folks) it will be three-to-five years before we are ready to rock and roll. We are VERY researcher friendly and, if we have room, will take "walk ins" Tuesday through Friday from 10AM until 4:30. Best to give us a call even a little but ahead of a visit, so we can do our best to have a seat for you. If I do say so,our staff speaks airplane fairly fluently, and we are YOUR museum. Come see us.
Dan Hagedorn
Research Team Leader, NASM
I could not help but note the line in Mike's original posting in which he said that he "...got the same runaround from NASM."
If that happened, I would be very grateful to know the circumstances. It is an item of faith with my unit, the NASM Archives Division Reference and Research Team that (a) we are open to EVERYONE on an equal and equitable basis and (b) if you all us at 202-633-2320 or 202-633-2315, you will talk to a human being. Having said that, you also ought to know that, because we sometimes have as many as 130,000 folks a day in our flagship building in downtown DC, and we only have 15 table spaces in our downtown Reading Room, the math is pretty obvious. At or Bldg.12 unit at the old Paul E. Garber Restoration and Storage Facility in Suitland, MD (about 7 miles as the crow flies from downtown) where 80+% of our collections are housed, in a highly controlled environment, we have only two (2) seats for researchers. We are peddling really hard to fix that by building Phase 2 of the Udvar-Hazy Center near Dulles International Airport, but even if we had all the bucks we need (yes, we are paying for this through private donations, folks) it will be three-to-five years before we are ready to rock and roll. We are VERY researcher friendly and, if we have room, will take "walk ins" Tuesday through Friday from 10AM until 4:30. Best to give us a call even a little but ahead of a visit, so we can do our best to have a seat for you. If I do say so,our staff speaks airplane fairly fluently, and we are YOUR museum. Come see us.
Dan Hagedorn
Research Team Leader, NASM
Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:40 pm
Nice to hear from you, Dan. Thanks for the headsup.
Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:24 am
Hi Mike.
Can you post a photo and an idea of what your looking for? The reason I ask is that I have a few revi gun sights and maybe able to help you ,post or pm me .Thanks Mike
Can you post a photo and an idea of what your looking for? The reason I ask is that I have a few revi gun sights and maybe able to help you ,post or pm me .Thanks Mike
A Little Bit More.....
Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:04 pm
Further to my last note (and please forgive some of my spelling; for some reason, this site seems to drop some of my letters when I type them in.
One of the collections we have that might be useful to Mike is the Captured German and Japanese Air Technical Documents Library Collection. It is truly a wonderful collection, but all on 35mm microfilm - just the way we received it from USAAF T-2 many moons ago, except the 3x5 card index. One of our Bldg.12 staffers, the legendary Larry Wilson, has been building an excellent data base of the thousands of index cards for the collection and, from that, we are able to inform interested researchers, whether by e-mail, letter or in person, whether there are documents in the collection that would be pertinent to their area of research. Mike might try sending us an e-mail at nasmrefdesk@si.edu and we will let him know what is in the collection on the Revi's. Word of warning: some of the documents are illustrated, but the text is nearly always in the original German.
Dan Hagedorn
NASM Archives Research Team Leader
One of the collections we have that might be useful to Mike is the Captured German and Japanese Air Technical Documents Library Collection. It is truly a wonderful collection, but all on 35mm microfilm - just the way we received it from USAAF T-2 many moons ago, except the 3x5 card index. One of our Bldg.12 staffers, the legendary Larry Wilson, has been building an excellent data base of the thousands of index cards for the collection and, from that, we are able to inform interested researchers, whether by e-mail, letter or in person, whether there are documents in the collection that would be pertinent to their area of research. Mike might try sending us an e-mail at nasmrefdesk@si.edu and we will let him know what is in the collection on the Revi's. Word of warning: some of the documents are illustrated, but the text is nearly always in the original German.
Dan Hagedorn
NASM Archives Research Team Leader