Warbird Information Exchange

I just saw a news report of airline performance. I just wondered if anyone on WIX would wiilingly fly on Jet Blue if they had another option?

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

Sure!!! I just love sitting for 9 hours on the tarmac with screaming kids and overflowing crappers in the "coach" section. Better yet I could just hitch a ride across country on one of those cattle car trailers. I'd probably get there quicker and the accomodations would be far superior.

I'll would rather drive cross country than put up with the hassle, delays, and all around crappy service that exists nowadays.

John

I used to work for US Airways, i have some interesting stories from there.

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Chris Henry
EAA Aviation Museum Manager

Well the wife and kid and I just came back from RSW to JFK on Wednesday. No problems. The flight down on the 21st was just as good. From what I understand they're still in the #2 spot, being bumped from #1 by Hawaiian.

Still if the weather is going to be ice/sleet/snow you better be prepared no matter which airline you travel on. It seems now the rule will be just cancel everything. That wasn't the case 10 years ago when I dispatched for US Airways.

Anyway I'll be nice to Jet Blue as they will be my ride out to Columbus OH in September for the Mustang Gathering!

Pete

I'm gonna take my chances with Jetblue for the Mustang Gathering....$108 bucks roundtrip from JFK to Columbus. It's cheaper than driving.

I flew JetBlue to PHX from BOS last week... the flight was non-stop, inexpensive, and very comfortable. The legroom is far better than almost all the coach seats for airlines these days and the 35 channels of live TV during the flight makes the experience go by a heck of a lot faster.

I remember the Northwest situation a few years ago with folks being stranded on the tarmac for hours during a storm as well. It is bound to happen to any airline, it's just a matter of time.

I have always followed the rule of "fly on the line that got caught last"... eg: fly on the airline that had the last customer problem, or drunk pilot, or dare I say, crash (knocking on wood). When a problem is discovered, most times the response is far more vigilant and aggressive than before.

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Ryan Keough
Stow, MA

I can't think of another business besides airlines that thinks it has the legal right to kidnap hundreds of people, including children and elderly, with no recourse for the passengers. I'm not talking about a delay due to weather for an hour or so, or even longer where people are honestly told the situation in the terminal and allowed to make a choice. No bus, or restaurant, or hotel could treat people like that. I hope everyone of those passengers gets a top lawyer to represent them for damages. If it gets to a jury I predict the airline is not going to be so indifferent next time. I am not a legal expert, but it seems at least there would be issues of breach of contract. The airline sold tickets for a promised flight, not to hold people hostage. There are some situations, like Ford with the rollovers, when the corp has no concern for the public until they get hit with loss of sales and big judgements against them.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

I was stuck in DFW for five and a half hours on the ramp due to icing. We finally got down to the de-icing station and guess what....inspected and cleared to go with no de-icing needed. Stuff happens.

Bill,

As much as JetBlue is a paper tiger in the industry I doubt they or any carrier thinks it has a legal right to treat it's passengers poorly. Air transportation today is the Greyhound with wings for the masses, unlike 30 or 40 years ago when it was a premium travel experience for the affluent with much fewer flights. JetBlew screwed up big time when challenged and should have done better and obviously didn't have processes and leadership in place to deal more effectively with aircraft in all their gates and aircraft stranded on the taxiways and should be held accountable. But even if they had done much better, it still would have been ugly. Having said that, this kind of stuff will happen again with the current air travel system exceeding maximum capacity (no cushion for delays, weather) in terms of frequency of departures (more of the small "Barbie" jets instead of fewer departures on larger jets)...i.e. too many jets in too little airspace and ramp/taxiway space. I'm not carrying water for any carrier that strands people for eight hours on the taxiway, but this is the air travel system the pols in D.C. and the people wanted--cheap, frequent flights accessible to the common citizen to every little burg. As a pilot in this system, I'm fed up with the overcrowded, Greyhound station circus from my end but if "we" decide to punish the airlines by legislating feel-good penalties, sueing them and making ourselves feel like we're doing something, that'll just make them gunshy to push off the gate in somewhat marginal, but flyable weather conditions and be spring loaded for mass cancellations...so be ready to have your airline of choice delay you a day or two or put you on a bus after a wave of preemptive cancellations in weather that may seem only moderately inclement for flying. The real solution is to reduce the number of slots in busy airport terminal areas like NYC, thereby requiring larger aircraft to service them less frequently and finally allow for some cushion in the overburdened system. Only politicians could facilitate building an overcrowded air travel system by ramping up flight slots astronomically, then pander to the public as if to the rescue, to save us from these dastardly airlines. GMAFB!!

United Express( Mesa?) was flying to Aspen; an elderly man needed to use the bathroom,he could have been in an out in a moment,but the stew stood in front of the bathroom door to block it. He finally had to pee in a bottle while his wife held a blanket over him. Did the airline apologize, pay for his ticket, and fire the aisle Nazi? Of course not. Let's say you reserve a hotel room well in advance, perhaps it was Superbowl or you had a major business event; and you pay in advance and get a confirmed reservation. If you arrive and the hotel does not have your room because they sold it to more than one party, you would have a case not only for a refund but perhaps damages. Most important the hotel does not have the right to lock the doors and claim you can't leave for 9 hours. I am not talking about a delay of a couple of hours, I am talking about holding people hostage, including elderly and infants for 9 hours in a metal tube. Paul, I don't primarily blame the pilots. I am also a stockhoder in Southwest; I came close to buying American and Continental last year when they were down, wish I had. But what Jetblue did and their attitude in doing it stinks. Most airlines have an excellent safety record, and sometimes fares are very cheap, but the lesser airlines, even United have sometimes forgotten customer service and common decency; at worst they regard a passenger more as an opponent than a customer.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

The 9-hours-on-tarmac thing was certainly a debacle but I think part of the reason why it made news is that it was out of character for JetBlue. As a frequent business and personal airline passenger my experience with them has been no worse, maybe a little better, than any other carrier. I did not hesitate to book them for my flight to see the Chino show next month.

On the other hand, the JetBlue terminal renovations at JFK have been a nightmare, no matter what the weather. I don't know if they contributed to the recent incidents.

August

As someone who's spending all day at a commercial airport (and listening to their VHF transmissions) I'm going to have to agree and disagree with Bill.

I'll agree in that the airlines could do a better job of planning ahead for delays and compensating passengers when they do happen. Most of the delays I see are because of their EDCT (Estimated Departure Control Time, I believe) times that keep too many aircraft from piling up at one airport at once. We all know the story; weather piles up over a hub or several hubs and that pretty much clogs things up. That being said, the longest I've ever seen an airliner (an American 737 by the way) sit for a change in its EDCT was an hour.

I'll disagree because the difficult truth is that a significant number of people simply do not behave themselves when they enter an airplane. Anyone who has read "Plane Insanity" by Eliot Hester knows what I'm talking about. Yesterday I had two carriers stop taxiing because some individual of questionable judgement passenger decided to get up and do something when they were not supposed to. In fact, one had taxied onto the runway to depart when they had to EXIT because somebody in back chose to stand and do whatever they wanted.

Once an aircraft pushes back from the gate, it's a hassle to get them back into place should a delay pop up. From what I have seen, they don't even start their engines until they are pushed back. Another problem is that those delays sometimes go from an hour back to five minutes. If that happens and they have just deplaned 150 passengers from a 737 that are now wandering around the terminal....

Anyway, like I said. Agree and disagree. Just my $0.02

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ATC: "Oscar 2, cleared to engage wildlife at your discretion..."

Bill,

Neither passengers nor airline employees should be allowed to get away with rude, abusive behavior including keeping pax for none hours on the tarmac. I've got tons of firsthand experience with rudeness on both sides. I could cite the bank VP that crapped on the galley cart when he didn't get his way or the dozens of belligerent drunk "Clark Griswold-like" vacationers wanting their rear ends kissed ala first class when they bought the cheapest internet coach ticket. Airlines are allowed by the DOT to oversell available seats by approx 10% because that's the average passenger "no-show" rate. Barring extreme/extenuating emergencies, what's fair to the airline when a passenger doesn't show for their flight? If they simply overslept, do they have a "right" to be booked on a later flight any more than a hotel guest should still get their room when they show a day late? Doesn't matter, because in most cases they are. Are weather and ATC delays the airlines' fault? Clearly the airlines can/should behave better (so should passengers), but much of the air travel environment such as weather, ATC and flight slot allocation is out of the control of the airlines. In the marketplace, no carrier wants to cede flight slots the competition in order to be a good corporate citizen and reduce air traffic congestion...quite the contrary, they're going to behave competitively to maximize revenue. Like I said before, airlines need to have processes, training and personnel in place to deal with irregular ops like winter storms. If I'm stranded on the taxiway, I'm gonna go back to the gate after three or four hours max (unless food/water, lav capacity runs out sooner) and if they don't give me a gate, I'm going to cite passenger health/safety (no FAA inspector would disagree!) take a gate and worry about being called on the carpet later (happened plenty in my USAF career so why stop now...). Captains need to consider info/updates, direction from their ops control center, ramp control, local airport ops, but there comes a time when they may have to go against the company's wishes and make the tough judgement call. A lot of the passengers might not even like returning to the gate after four hours, and the company might be p*ssed, but the captain is in command of that aircraft and responsible for it and the welfare of the people inside, not some dispatcher sitting in front of a computer screen 1000 miles away. I understand the frustration of the travelling public and some of this can be fixed, but a lot of it can't/won't be 'til policy is changed from D.C.

OK troops...34 years with UAL and every one of them in public contact in one form or another.
Airline passengers today are of the impression that the airline owes them a lot more than transportation from A to B. Not so. An airline ticket is a contract to perform only that. Transportation from A to B.
Delays, for whatever reason. are a part of the air travel environment. If you got on a bus to go from A to B, and the traffic was so bad that it took twice as long as the schedule indicated, would you sue the bus company? You might, but I think the case would be laughed out of court.
What I'm trying to say here is, situations beyond the control of the carrier (airline, train, bus, whatever) are just that. BEYOND THEIR CONTROL.
I know, the Jet Blue situation was excessive but what was the whole story?
What action could they have taken to alleviate the situation? What actions did they consider and reject for safety or logistical reasons. Suppose ATC had been telling the pilot, "Should only be a few more minutes." What's the pilot gonna' do, go back to the terminal anyway (assuming there was an open gate to park at.) and lose his place in the line? (That's queue for you folks in "Jolly Olde" ) What kind of screaming do you think would have been going on if, the moment the plane gets back to the terminal, planes start taking off?

Trust me, in 34 years, I've seen pretty much every kind of hassle/screw up/problem you can imagine. There is no "catch-all" answer.

Mudge the experienced

ps T33 driver. Gotta' take exception to your "take a gate" comment. Suppose there isn't one? Who ya' gonna' move? If someone's parked in a parking space you think you should have, are you gonna' move 'em? I'd pay to see that.

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Land of the free because of the brave

Mudge,

Great insight and my hat's off to you for working so many years in the trenches of the airline biz! You're right on, there is no catch-all answer as every situation is unique. If there's no gate, see if they can tug an empty aircraft off a gate and park it elsewhere (cargo ramp, maintenance hangar etc.) to make room or park it on the ramp and borrow some airstairs to deplane on the tarmac. In an eight hour delay scenario like JetBlue with the lavs overflowing and water/food supplies exhausted, it becomes a health/safety crisis and getting those folks off the airplane would be paramount to protect their health/safety. As you know, the ramp tower that controls gate traffic has a plan to shuffle/park airplanes, but during irregular ops they're improvising by the minute and maybe offering suggestions to them like deplaning at a gate, then repositioning the aircraft empty to wait out the storm at the maintenance hangar is a possible solution. Hopefully the publicity of the JetBlue passengers' ordeal will compel the airlines will draft better contingency plans in to deal with excess aircraft clogging up the available gates/ramps and stranding passengers for hours.