Jet Warbirds. Will there be any left?

[Warbird Mechanic]

A lot of the civvy jet warbirds aren't really up and going. Several of the T-33's and F-86's are owned by people that later decided they didn't want to afford keeping them annualed and airworthy and are really static displays. In many cases the owners would sell immediately if they got an offer in the ballpark of what they paid for them.
Most of the imported jets like the Migs, L-29's , Iskra, Fougas. Hispano Saetta's, Saabs, Jet Provosts,Strikemasters, etc. were imported based on someone speculating in the market of jet warbirds. They were bought as investment units to be resold for a profit and if the market hasn't fulfilled their expectations, then they quit having them uncrated, assembled and gotten licensed and flying. They're just sitting around the country and the owners would kiss you on the lips if you made them an offer to help them recoup a little of their capital.
Lastly, there have been a few aircraft in civilian hands specifically to fill some govt. contract like radar penetration exercises, Test Pilot's School, etc. A few I remember include the English Electric Canberra(B-57), and the Fairey Gannet in the U.S. And NO, no one can afford to operate a B-57 just for fun. They didn't get rich, by being stupid with their millions. millions.

That kinda reminds me of the Victor or Vulcan bomber a civilian group owns in Britain. They maintain this bomber to airworthy condition, but the British government will not allow them to fly it because its considered a nuclear bomber. Last I heard they do taxi it around the field once on month and thats it. The last time I saw a Avro Vulcan bomber fly was at the 1978 Dayton Air Fair in Vandalia, Ohio. Man was that a site to see! One British millionare owns a Blackburn Buccaneer S.2. The British government would not grant him a permit to fly it in England so he moved to South Africa and flies it regularily down there.

Jim

[PhantomAce08]

A lot of the civvy jet warbirds aren't really up and going. Several of the T-33's and F-86's are owned by people that later decided they didn't want to afford keeping them annualed and airworthy and are really static displays. In many cases the owners would sell immediately if they got an offer in the ballpark of what they paid for them.
Most of the imported jets like the Migs, L-29's , Iskra, Fougas. Hispano Saetta's, Saabs, Jet Provosts,Strikemasters, etc. were imported based on someone speculating in the market of jet warbirds. They were bought as investment units to be resold for a profit and if the market hasn't fulfilled their expectations, then they quit having them uncrated, assembled and gotten licensed and flying. They're just sitting around the country and the owners would kiss you on the lips if you made them an offer to help them recoup a little of their capital.
Lastly, there have been a few aircraft in civilian hands specifically to fill some govt. contract like radar penetration exercises, Test Pilot's School, etc. A few I remember include the English Electric Canberra(B-57), and the Fairey Gannet in the U.S. And NO, no one can afford to operate a B-57 just for fun. They didn't get rich, by being stupid with their millions. millions.

That kinda reminds me of the Victor or Vulcan bomber a civilian group owns in Britain. They maintain this bomber to airworthy condition, but the British government will not allow them to fly it because its considered a nuclear bomber. Last I heard they do taxi it around the field once on month and thats it. The last time I saw a Avro Vulcan bomber fly was at the 1978 Dayton Air Fair in Vandalia, Ohio. Man was that a site to see! One British millionare owns a Blackburn Buccaneer S.2. The British government would not grant him a permit to fly it in England so he moved to South Africa and flies it regularily down there.

Jim

I thought the Vulcan was going to fly for sure.

[Cubs]

There are 2 F-104's on the airshow circuit. They are supposed to be at MCAS Cherry Point this weekend.
Collings Foundation has an F-4D, that is on the airshow circuit, or might be if someone afford to pay for it.


Paul

[RickH]

Actually, Paul, finding someone to pay for it isn't impossible. The F-4 is still down with the #2 engine fodded. We removed it a couple of weeks ago. We hope to be back up soon.

There are 2 F-104's on the airshow circuit. They are supposed to be at MCAS Cherry Point this weekend.
Collings Foundation has an F-4D, that is on the airshow circuit, or might be if someone afford to pay for it.
Paul

Paul - unfortunately The Starfighters have had to cancel their orignally planned May appearances at Cherry Point and at Andrews due to some maintenance issues they needed to work on.

They are working on a new 3-ship F-104 demo which they had hoped to debut at Andrews, but unfortunately has been put off for a while. I have seen the single F-104 demo last year and a 2-ship F-104 demo they did a few years back. I can't wait to see the 3-ship.

Actually, Paul, finding someone to pay for it isn't impossible. The F-4 is still down with the #2 engine fodded. We removed it a couple of weeks ago. We hope to be back up soon.

Rick - the Collings F-4D is a beautiful airplane.

I was wondering what you or others with Collings thought about my idea concerning the F-4D. In the event that a Navy type restored F-4 does not make it to flying status in the next 2 or 3 years or so - I was wondering if any consideration might be given to the thought of temporarily painting the F-4D up in 1960s or 70s Navy or Marine Corps markings for the 2011 air show season (simulate an F-4B/F-4N, etc.) to commemorate the 100th Anniversary of Naval Aviation.

Just a crazy thought of mine that it would be great to see a Navy F-4 along with the TA-4J, the MiG Fury FJ-4B and some other vintage Navy and Marine planes in 2011 flying around the country individually and in "Legacy Flights."

[RickH]

JWC, I guess it all boils down to cost. If we could get a sponsor to underwrite or if we could get some Navy Legacy funding with a guarantee of show appearances the idea certainly has merit and would deserve some consideration. Of course you'd probably be talking a repaint back to USAF colors after a period of time.

On the other hand, let me think, hmmm, UH-1E, F-4U-5, TBM, TA-4, S2F, F-4,... heck we got our own in house Legacy Flight ! Course I don't know how we'd keep them in all in the same piece of sky ! Talk about your dissimilar formation !

[PhantomAce08]

Actually, Paul, finding someone to pay for it isn't impossible. The F-4 is still down with the #2 engine fodded. We removed it a couple of weeks ago. We hope to be back up soon.

I thought that happened last year. It still hasn't been fixed yet? I went to the Pittsburgh air show last year for the sole reason of seeing the F-4. I still haven't seen a F-4 fly yet! I hope everything gets worked out soon!

[RickH]

Lets just say that the engines allocated as spares back when we got the aircraft in 1999 haven't been released from AMARC as was expected. There are people associated with the USAF that don't want this aircraft to fly. So we had to approach the problem from another direction.

[Vulture]

RickH Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject:

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Lets just say that the engines allocated as spares back when we got the aircraft in 1999 haven't been released from AMARC as was expected. There are people associated with the USAF that don't want this aircraft to fly. So we had to approach the problem from another direction.

CODE for: Dont worry, they WILL be releasing them, just may take some a$$ kicking! .... RickH, did someone advise your obstructors that you dont bring a knife to a gun fight?

[dhfan]

That kinda reminds me of the Victor or Vulcan bomber a civilian group owns in Britain. They maintain this bomber to airworthy condition, but the British government will not allow them to fly it because its considered a nuclear bomber. Last I heard they do taxi it around the field once on month and thats it. The last time I saw a Avro Vulcan bomber fly was at the 1978 Dayton Air Fair in Vandalia, Ohio. Man was that a site to see! One British millionare owns a Blackburn Buccaneer S.2. The British government would not grant him a permit to fly it in England so he moved to South Africa and flies it regularily down there.

Jim

There are two Vulcans and two Victors in taxying condition here. A third Vulcan is currently being restored to flight and "should" take to the air sometime in the next month or so.

Mike Beachyhead, the owner of the Buccaneer, is South African. It was going to SA anyway but the CAA wouldn't let him fly it from the UK so it went by sea. He also has four airworthy Lightnings and two Hunters.

http://www.thundercity.com/

[Old SAR pilot]

I also saw in the latest issue of FlyPast that Wings and Rotors Air Museum in California is restoring an F-4H-1/F-4A to flight stauts. The article said that they hope to have it back in the air within two years!

[wendovertom]

Rick,

what about picking up spares from the IAF? or do the engines fall under the same "lend lease" political BS that haunts all of the A-4 and F-4s they have for sale? It irks me that those planes can be bought by anyone living anywhere outside of the US

Just by way of information, the CJAA is holding a "jet blast" event in Wendover on May 19-20 this year. As of this moment we are expecting 30 or so jets including examples of: T-33, L-39, L-29, Casa, Fouga, Alpha jet, T-37, Mig-15, Mig-17, Mig-21, F-104, F-86 and remote possibility of an F-100. This is a "quasi public" event - read this as if you come and bring a cooler, the view from the parking lot will be great! There will be limited ramp access as jet operations require a lot of situational awareness and the last thing we want is a FOD incident . . .

Tom P.

[RickH]

Tom, I'm not sure about any engines from the IAF. They received mostly E's with the -17 engine. Not sure if they have any 15s. I know Rick Svetkoff was supposed to get some F-104 J-79s out of Italy. They are early models and the burners are different so they wouldn't help us any.

Hopefully it won't be too long before our replacement is ready for installation.

If I could figure this Photobucket thing out I would post some pictures of the engine pull from a couple of weeks ago.

Rick- The photo challenged

[CAPFlyer]

I just had an interesting discussion with one of the CWAM pilots about jets and airshows. He made an interesting comment about the L-39 and our "fast jets".

They're not good airshow aircraft.

Hang in with me here for a second -

The L-39 isn't a good airshow aircraft simply because it doesn't make enough noise. Have you ever heard one fly over? It's more of a "whosh" than a "roar" going by. Not enough to make any real "impact".

The MiG-21 and MiG-23 are loud (very loud), but it's way too fast and hard to keep in view of the crowd, so it ends up being more of a "zoom" (wait 2 minutes) "zoom" (wait 2 minutes), etc. So not great for keeping crowds entertained.

The L-29 (which is a turbojet) and the Fouga we have are the best because they're loud, but you can fly aerobatics at a speed which allows you to stay completely within the airfield perimeter.

The planes he wants to see for aerobatics from the former Soviet Union are Su-25 Frogfoots. 2 MiG-21 engines (albeit without afterburners), maneuverable, and (most importantly) SLOW.

That's the problem that I think all jet warbirds run into. While most of them are loud, most of them have to be flown so fast that they really aren't that entertaining with the kinds of restrictions we have to fly with in the civilian world (most people don't have G-Suits, lots of G-training, and the planes aren't exactly young, so can't pull the kinds of G's current military pilots pull when doing their displays at airshows). So, there will be that issue that these jets will not have the same draw for airshows as airborne aircraft as static displays, so there may not be as big of a "market" for jet warbirds as there is for piston ones becuase of it.