Sun May 06, 2007 9:16 am
Having been in the middle of this jet stuff for a while the biggest problem I see is that airshows in general don't understand that the right vintage jet will actually put paying airshow patrons on their ramp.
I have met many people who heard that the F-4 or A-4 would be at an airshow ,flying a demo, and they have driven many miles and hours just to see the airplanes one more time.
If it wasn't well received by the crowd do you think the USAF would have gone to the effort to include drones in the Heritage Flight ? Adding the F-4 is an unprecedented move for the USAF. They've never tried to put up a vintage flight like BBMF but the F-4 Heritage may be as close as you'll ever see. Yes they are drones and have a primary mission and they will eventually be expended but for now they are out there getting in front of the airshow public. It does make getting ours out there more difficult. However the drone F-4s are limited in the number of shows they can attend and the same goes for us. But, if you are an airshow organizer which would you take, a free F-4, or one that you have to help offset operating expenses. Any DoD entity is bound by law NOT to compete when a civilian entity is out there and can provide a service, in some instances I have literally seen them hang their collective hats on this statute. However it doesn't seem to bother them on this particular issue.
We have been trying to get the airshow organizers to understand that these jets are not second tier acts. With the expenses involved to bring these aircraft to the public, they simply aren't an act you can afford to use a backfill for a days flying schedule. We believe that they are a premium first tier act and if you want one you need to budget them first and then add more acts as the budget allows. It is very difficult for an airshow organizer to book 5 whoop de doo acts and then find the money to add a fast jet or evn multiple warbirds. I say this not to denigrate the aerobatic guys but many folks believe that the airshow crowd gets bored when too many small aircraft aerobatic acts are booked for one show.
The F-4 will give the airshow about a 15 minute show in the air and an additional 30 minutes on the ground if it is positioned correctly where the crowd can see exactly what it takes to launch and recover a jet of this complexity and vintage. It is not really a 1 man launch process. It's certainly not the old "kick the tires, light the fires". This process keeps the crowd engaged. I have seen people whoop and holler when the F-4 makes its low level drag pass with it whistling and screaming all the way down the runway as well as a pass made that's bumping 500 knots and making vapor. We've had more than one vet come up to us and thank us for keeping her in the air. These weren't pilots or maint guys, these were former grunts on the ground who believe that if it weren't for the work of some unknown Phantom that they wouldn't be here today.
The A-4 brings out the same type of emotions but a lot cheaper. We can also take it to shows at airports with shorter runways that may not be eligble for any other jets, especially ACC jets as they require a minimum of 8000 ft.
Oh yeah, one thing we don't suffer with is that our jets, MAKE REAL LOUD JET NOISE !!!
I have met many people who heard that the F-4 or A-4 would be at an airshow ,flying a demo, and they have driven many miles and hours just to see the airplanes one more time.
If it wasn't well received by the crowd do you think the USAF would have gone to the effort to include drones in the Heritage Flight ? Adding the F-4 is an unprecedented move for the USAF. They've never tried to put up a vintage flight like BBMF but the F-4 Heritage may be as close as you'll ever see. Yes they are drones and have a primary mission and they will eventually be expended but for now they are out there getting in front of the airshow public. It does make getting ours out there more difficult. However the drone F-4s are limited in the number of shows they can attend and the same goes for us. But, if you are an airshow organizer which would you take, a free F-4, or one that you have to help offset operating expenses. Any DoD entity is bound by law NOT to compete when a civilian entity is out there and can provide a service, in some instances I have literally seen them hang their collective hats on this statute. However it doesn't seem to bother them on this particular issue.
We have been trying to get the airshow organizers to understand that these jets are not second tier acts. With the expenses involved to bring these aircraft to the public, they simply aren't an act you can afford to use a backfill for a days flying schedule. We believe that they are a premium first tier act and if you want one you need to budget them first and then add more acts as the budget allows. It is very difficult for an airshow organizer to book 5 whoop de doo acts and then find the money to add a fast jet or evn multiple warbirds. I say this not to denigrate the aerobatic guys but many folks believe that the airshow crowd gets bored when too many small aircraft aerobatic acts are booked for one show.
The F-4 will give the airshow about a 15 minute show in the air and an additional 30 minutes on the ground if it is positioned correctly where the crowd can see exactly what it takes to launch and recover a jet of this complexity and vintage. It is not really a 1 man launch process. It's certainly not the old "kick the tires, light the fires". This process keeps the crowd engaged. I have seen people whoop and holler when the F-4 makes its low level drag pass with it whistling and screaming all the way down the runway as well as a pass made that's bumping 500 knots and making vapor. We've had more than one vet come up to us and thank us for keeping her in the air. These weren't pilots or maint guys, these were former grunts on the ground who believe that if it weren't for the work of some unknown Phantom that they wouldn't be here today.
The A-4 brings out the same type of emotions but a lot cheaper. We can also take it to shows at airports with shorter runways that may not be eligble for any other jets, especially ACC jets as they require a minimum of 8000 ft.
Oh yeah, one thing we don't suffer with is that our jets, MAKE REAL LOUD JET NOISE !!!
MIN
Sun May 06, 2007 11:04 am
Hey Rick
Thank you for your always informative insight. I was curious, what are the Operating Min's and Costs for the TA & F -4?
Vulture
Thank you for your always informative insight. I was curious, what are the Operating Min's and Costs for the TA & F -4?
Vulture
Sun May 06, 2007 10:20 pm
It's really hard to nail down. Mostly because of enroutel fuel needs.
F-4, Appearance fee 9500.00 That includes two demos. Crew stands by with the aircraft if its accessible to the public. Sometimes a show is nice enough to tow us to the static area after we fly. That way they take advantage of having the jet availible for flying and static. We know it's expensive to bring in so we try to give a show the biggest bang for their buck we can.
Fuel in would be figured at 20 lbs per mile plus 3000 lb reserve. That's reimbursed to the Foundation at 3.60 per gallon. If we can get several shows in a general region then we breakdown the initial fuel buy among the shows. They top the aircraft off for departure. F-4 gets 800 gallons per demo.
TA-4 gets 6800.00 appearance. All of the above except for fuel for the Phantom applies to the Skyhawk.
Fuel workup is the same except we figure 7 lbs per mile and our reserve is about 1000 lbs. Demo gas is 500 gallons per flight. As most know we have flown the A-4 with Marine's Dream at last year's Thunder. We would like to add the aircraft to the Navy Legacy Flight.
F-4, Appearance fee 9500.00 That includes two demos. Crew stands by with the aircraft if its accessible to the public. Sometimes a show is nice enough to tow us to the static area after we fly. That way they take advantage of having the jet availible for flying and static. We know it's expensive to bring in so we try to give a show the biggest bang for their buck we can.
Fuel in would be figured at 20 lbs per mile plus 3000 lb reserve. That's reimbursed to the Foundation at 3.60 per gallon. If we can get several shows in a general region then we breakdown the initial fuel buy among the shows. They top the aircraft off for departure. F-4 gets 800 gallons per demo.
TA-4 gets 6800.00 appearance. All of the above except for fuel for the Phantom applies to the Skyhawk.
Fuel workup is the same except we figure 7 lbs per mile and our reserve is about 1000 lbs. Demo gas is 500 gallons per flight. As most know we have flown the A-4 with Marine's Dream at last year's Thunder. We would like to add the aircraft to the Navy Legacy Flight.
TA/F-4 operating
Sun May 06, 2007 10:29 pm
Thank you rickh! I am sure you are a welcome addition to any show! I am curious .... if ACC mins are 8000' what are yours? When you travel to a show do you have a number of support staff? ... what happens if something breaks .... you have a road crew or support plane? I have to assume operating these craft are a bit of a logistical nightmare...
V
V
Sun May 06, 2007 11:53 pm
RickH
I got to see that performance last year! What an act!
I was hoping to see that Skyraider, Mig-15, and the A-4 take to the skies together. A Vietnam demo!
Also: what aircraft are currently involved in the Tail Hook Legacy flights?
I got to see that performance last year! What an act!
I was hoping to see that Skyraider, Mig-15, and the A-4 take to the skies together. A Vietnam demo!
Also: what aircraft are currently involved in the Tail Hook Legacy flights?
Mon May 07, 2007 9:30 pm
There are no Tailhook Legacy Flights. Just Legacy Flight.
Besides the Foundation F4U-5, I'm not sure who all has qualified this year. There was talk of limiting the qualifying to folks who have been actively flying shows within the last couple of years.
Besides the Foundation F4U-5, I'm not sure who all has qualified this year. There was talk of limiting the qualifying to folks who have been actively flying shows within the last couple of years.
Mon May 07, 2007 10:33 pm
Ugh 
Why does it seem that the Navy always has to be anal about such stuff involving recovering a wreck or this problem?
Why does it seem that the Navy always has to be anal about such stuff involving recovering a wreck or this problem?
Mon May 07, 2007 10:35 pm
What problem are you referring to ?
Mon May 07, 2007 10:57 pm
Well I really cant say too much.
In my eyes it seems that the Navy seems to be strict about there laws.
They really dont allow any private ownerships to salvage any aircraft out in the wilderness.
Also i was making a speculation about the legacy flight thng. I dont know really. Just stating an opinion
In my eyes it seems that the Navy seems to be strict about there laws.
They really dont allow any private ownerships to salvage any aircraft out in the wilderness.
Also i was making a speculation about the legacy flight thng. I dont know really. Just stating an opinion
Tue May 08, 2007 2:41 pm
Well, if you can get past the "lend lease" issue there are plenty of A-4s out there:
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/airforce/a4skyhawk.htm
also, interested in an F-4??:
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/airforce/f4phantom.htm
Alas, I understand Hades will freeze over before one of these birds can come home in any condition other than a pile of scrap; probably not even then.
Tom P.
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/airforce/a4skyhawk.htm
also, interested in an F-4??:
http://www.sibat.mod.gov.il/airforce/f4phantom.htm
Alas, I understand Hades will freeze over before one of these birds can come home in any condition other than a pile of scrap; probably not even then.
Tom P.
Tue May 08, 2007 2:57 pm
A shame.
But the one thing that you can always count on is that nothing ever stays the same. Maybe it will just take some switching of certian figures up stairs.
Also: Who is currentlly flying any F-100's? Where are they? How many?
Chris
But the one thing that you can always count on is that nothing ever stays the same. Maybe it will just take some switching of certian figures up stairs.
Also: Who is currentlly flying any F-100's? Where are they? How many?
Chris
IAI A-4
Wed May 09, 2007 12:34 pm
If i understand it correctly, there are already a number of A-4 aircraft in the USA and workign on some contract with BAE
V
V
Alas, I understand Hades will freeze over before one of these birds can come home in any condition other than a pile of scrap; probably not even then.
Tom P.
Wed May 09, 2007 1:43 pm
Here is the A-4 community in the US as I know it right now.
We have 1 flyer TA-4F
There were approximately 15-20 aircraft at Tucson that were spares bought 30 years ago by Maylaysia from Foreign Military Sales thru the State Dept. They were complete when parked and had been IRANed at Grumman St Augustine prior to being put in storage in Tucson. Those aircraft have since been sold several times with the bulk having been dispersed to individual owners within the last two years. There were a couple of Cs but most were Ls. There were no TAs.
ATAC has a TA-4 that was assembled by Air Capitol Warbirds with no documentation of the work. It was done for a private owners who has since sold it to ATAC. They are redoing a lot of the work previously completed.
ATSI has former Israeli single seat A-4Hs or N and TA-4Hs. They are at Williams Gateway Airport. A couple of the single seat aircraft were sold to BAE for work on a contract in France. They have left the country. The rest are currently parked and I've been told that it looks really quiet around there.
There is one junkyard dog TA-4 that was assembled from parts from multiple sources and its ownership is listed as Victor Miller. It was affiliated with the Aero Group at one time.
Our aircraft is currently the only aircraft available for airshow demos. The rest that fly are flying on R&D certificates or as public use aircraft.
We have 1 flyer TA-4F
There were approximately 15-20 aircraft at Tucson that were spares bought 30 years ago by Maylaysia from Foreign Military Sales thru the State Dept. They were complete when parked and had been IRANed at Grumman St Augustine prior to being put in storage in Tucson. Those aircraft have since been sold several times with the bulk having been dispersed to individual owners within the last two years. There were a couple of Cs but most were Ls. There were no TAs.
ATAC has a TA-4 that was assembled by Air Capitol Warbirds with no documentation of the work. It was done for a private owners who has since sold it to ATAC. They are redoing a lot of the work previously completed.
ATSI has former Israeli single seat A-4Hs or N and TA-4Hs. They are at Williams Gateway Airport. A couple of the single seat aircraft were sold to BAE for work on a contract in France. They have left the country. The rest are currently parked and I've been told that it looks really quiet around there.
There is one junkyard dog TA-4 that was assembled from parts from multiple sources and its ownership is listed as Victor Miller. It was affiliated with the Aero Group at one time.
Our aircraft is currently the only aircraft available for airshow demos. The rest that fly are flying on R&D certificates or as public use aircraft.
Wed May 09, 2007 2:02 pm
RickH wrote:There is one junkyard dog TA-4 that was assembled from parts from multiple sources and its ownership is listed as Victor Miller. It was affiliated with the Aero Group at one time.
Is this the TA-4 that is in Cape Girardeau, MO?
I saw it two weeks ago while driving down I-55.
Wed May 09, 2007 2:05 pm
Thanks Rick!
Where I was going with the Israeli post is that despite there being plenty of airframes around, this economical (as far as jet warbids go) jet will rarely be seen on the US air show circuit.
I would dearaly love to have the Collings TA-4 come to our show but the $$ has to be right as well - same story for the Starfighters F-104s, The L-39 Patriot jet team, MIG/Fury Team, Jets are AWESOME, LOUD, CROWD PLEASERS but expensive.
Tom P.
Where I was going with the Israeli post is that despite there being plenty of airframes around, this economical (as far as jet warbids go) jet will rarely be seen on the US air show circuit.
I would dearaly love to have the Collings TA-4 come to our show but the $$ has to be right as well - same story for the Starfighters F-104s, The L-39 Patriot jet team, MIG/Fury Team, Jets are AWESOME, LOUD, CROWD PLEASERS but expensive.
Tom P.