CAF B-23: How bad is bad corrosion?

[Blackwing]

Would the CAF be willing to sell the Dragon outright to an interested third party?

[Taylor Stevenson]

It is not usually the CAFs policy to sell their aircraft, unless safety issues arise (Chipmunk and ME109).

[warbird51]

One of you said that there are five B-23's surviving at present. CAF's is the topic of this thread and Kermit W's has been mentioned. Who has the other three?

Canso42

There is 10 or 11 surviving B-23's out of 38 built. I have a list somewhere at home that identifies them. I'll check tonight.

Wayne Cook, crew chief, B-23 #39-33 N747M

[warbird51]

more info courtesy Andy Marden.

39-028 B-23 Miami FL Lorenair Last remaining active B-23 (information is not confirmed).
>> Never heard of this, anyone confirm please?
39-031 B-23 Quito Ecuador Ecuador Aviation Museum Displayed outdoors (information is not confirmed).
>> Current Oct04.
39-033 B-23 Ione CA Private (Willa K. Bogue) Registered as of Sep 19, 2001.
>> Current Dec06.
39-036 B-23 Tacoma WA McChord Air Force Base Base not open to the public since 9/11.
>> Current Nov06.
39-037 B-23 Dayton OH National Museum Of The US Air Force Currently not on display awaiting restoration.
>> Current Nov06.
39-038 B-23 Midland TX Confederate Air Force Displayed outdoors, marked as 40-178 (information is not confirmed).
>> Current Oct05.
39-045 B-23 Atwater CA Castle Air Museum Displayed outdoors.
>> Current Oct06. This is often quoted as 39-045, but I think it is 39-047. It is on the USCAR as N880L, with c/n 2733. C/n 2733 equates to 39-047.
39-051 B-23 Tucson AZ Pima Aerospace Museum Displayed outdoors.
>> Current Oct06.
39-052 B-23 Loon Lake ID Crash site in wilderness area Crashed 29 Jan 43, was relatively intact, USAF recovered parts of the aircraft in 1999 to be used as patterns to restore 39-037.
>> Pass.
39-057 B-23 Polk City FL Fantasy Of Flight Displayed outdoors (information unconfirmed).
>> Stored, current Sep06.
39-063 B-23 Moses Lake WA Private (Robert Schlaeffli) Registered but unknown if plane still exists (information unconfirmed). [/i]
>> Current Jul04 - can anyone update?

Regards,
Andy Marden

[Blackwing]

So Taylor, Your saying, rather than sell it to someone with the means to repair it, the CAF prefers to watch it be reclaimed by the earth.......

[Nathan]

I understand there are other projects that the CAF need doing and the B-23 is not on the top of those. I also understand the money, time, and people it takes to work on a warbird. But since no other B-23 is flying today wouldn't it be a good idea to restore it? Even if just for static display? It could be a long term project.

How about getting a school class involved working on it? Geneseo did that with there C-119.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers,
Nathan

[marine air]

I have some questions and would appreciate anyone that can provide clarification.
1) The CAF's B-23. THe corrosion is has, is it something caused by years of salt air environment or thousands of flight hours, or is it something like intergranular corrosion or some other mettalurgical defect that affects the airplane everywhere and throughout?
2) I seem to remember there being 10 or 11 survivors. Do any of them have any interesting WWII history to speak of? I know Howard Hughes once owned one of them. Would be great if one of them was used as a hack by Gen. MacArthur, or had been flown by someone famous, etc.
3) Is there any history attributed to one of the B-23's that another could be painted to represent and be an attention getter?
4) The ones that were traded to the Air Force in the 80's that had previously been used as fire bombers; were they in good shape or worn out like the Privateers and the A-26's with major spar problems and other issues?
5) There is not an established market for a B-23, for sale or on the airshow circuit today. Let's say I fell in love and wanted to throw a million bucks into restoring one. Why would I do that? What would be my sales pitch and theme for my booth at ICAS? How would I line up airshows, and what would I do to generate income?
Thanks!

[Taylor Stevenson]

So Taylor, Your saying, rather than sell it to someone with the means to repair it, the CAF prefers to watch it be reclaimed by the earth.......

I am saying that we dont have the space or money to do anything with it now. If you look at my previous posts you would have seen that I stated that there had been talks at the General Staff meetings to make it a static display once the Commemorative Center is done and there is room in the other hangars. I mean we could ask gary to push "Ol' 927" out into the elements and replace it indoors with the Dragon. Other than that I dont believe there is room right now. The CAF mission statement is: save an example of every aircraft that flew during WWII. The CAF has no intention of letting it be "reclaimed by the earth"...

[rwdfresno]

So Taylor, Your saying, rather than sell it to someone with the means to repair it, the CAF prefers to watch it be reclaimed by the earth.......

Well, I think with this statement you are making an assumption that there is a line of people just waiting to fork over briefcases full of cash to purchase this aircraft. The closest to a flying B-23 out there has been for sale for a considerable amount of time for what seems like a very reasonable sum of money (a quarter of what it will take to make this one fly) however to my knowledge there have been no takers thus far. You, I or the next person might find B-23s to be just delightful but until someone puts their money where their mouth is then it is just a hypothetical. As rare as these "lessor known" types are there just are less people with money to restore them than their are airframes around to fix. It can sit in that field or it can sit in the next guy's field, but I think the fact remains that it will be sitting around for some time, and Midland TX is probably not the worst place for it to be.

[Eric Friedebach]

Here’s a picture I took in 1979 at an airshow in Cleveland. I was inside of Gene Fisher’s B-25.

Scott, feel free to use it in the Registry.

[Blackwing]

I mean we could ask gary to push "Ol' 927" out into the elements and replace it indoors with the Dragon

Obviously, this is not anything near what I asked be done.

Well, I think with this statement you are making an assumption that there is a line of people just waiting to fork over briefcases full of cash to purchase this aircraft.

I made no such assumption. I simply asked if they would sell to an interested third party.

You, I or the next person might find B-23s to be just delightful but until someone puts their money where their mouth is then it is just a hypothetical.

As inflamatory as that statement is, it still didn't address my question of it could be purchased or not...This is the internet, you don't know me or who I know who may have

briefcases full of cash.

It can sit in that field or it can sit in the next guy's field, but I think the fact remains that it will be sitting around for some time, and Midland TX is probably not the worst place for it to be.

It would be neither and would be put into a hanger immediately. Although, Midland is a nice place to visit. I like the Airsho once a year.

[Gunner]

This may be a stupid question,but how much of this aircraft will interchange with a DC-3/C-47? Would it be possible to swap out major sub assemblies from a donor aircraft to cut costs? Just an idea.

[Russ Matthews]

Blackwing -- if you're serious about locating a B-23 Dragon for sale, then check out this thread...

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12189&highlight=dragon

...concerning the ex-Howard Hughes bird that was offered for auction on e-bay (without the reserve being met) just last month.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Douglas-B-23-Dragon-Warbird_W0QQitemZ180099628390QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item180099628390

The owners are obviously interested in selling and the airframe is in far better condition than the CAF example. Could be a win/win for whomever you may have...

[JDK]

Kermit 39-057 B-23 Polk City FL Fantasy Of Flight Displayed outdoors (information unconfirmed).
>> Stored, current Sep06.

Weeks' B-23 in store, Jan 07.

[rwdfresno]

As inflamatory as that statement is, it still didn't address my question of it could be purchased or not...This is the internet, you don't know me or who I know who may have

It isn't meant to be an inflammatory remark. No I don't know you, and I am not making any insinuations of how much money you can produce to make it happen. I had no idea you even had a desire to obtain the aircraft. I think if you want to make an offer on the aircraft and restore to fly it kudos brother you have more get up and go than I do. The fact is, if you want a B-23 there is one for sale that is near flying, why flame the CAF for doing what they want with their aircraft. They have a history of restoring aircraft so not like it is just some farmer out there letting something rot away until they eventually have to call the scrapper to come pick it up. If having an aircraft sitting around outdoors not being restored is essentially warbird murder well a lot of people out there are doing it including, Tom Reilly, Aero Trader, Kermit Weeks, and add to it every shop at Chino or any other place that has had a half a dozen airframes sitting behind their hangar for the last 10-20 years including my father and I.

The fact is there are many airframes out there that will take more money to build than they will ever be worth, there aren't people jumping out of the woodwork to do this. Sure there are several very wealthy people who have done it and for that I am ecstatic that there are, if you are one of them, great you are the man. You want to get something that costs a lot of money to get flying and is even more rare than the B-23, how about the world's only P2V-3, only to be outdone by the United States Naval Aviation Museum's -2 model "The Turtle." Guaranteed to have the biggest twin at every airshow you attend!