Richtofen's Triplane

[mustangdriver]

I'm pretty sure there was a Richtofen combat-flown surviving aircraft that survived the war...I think it was also a Triplane. I have always heard/read that it was in a museum in/near Berlin, and was destroyed in a bombing raid after Der Foolhardy wouldn't allow it to be moved.

THat is the story I heard, that it was one of his planes. There were pics somewhere I had seen of it as well. It was indeed a red triplane.

[RMAllnutt]

The Southern Museum of Flight in Birmingham, Alabama has a few Richtofen bits, including this carved propellor blade which was from one of his Dr.I's. It was presented to him in commemoration of a 1916 air battle known as the Battle of the Eagles...

Cheers,
Richard

PS. You should go to this museum if you get the chance... it's a really fascinating place!

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[bdk]

Richthofen's aircraft was dismembered by souvenir hunters. Its engine was donated to the Imperial War Museum in London, where it is still on display.

[JDK]

I'd like to find the fabric and entrance exit wounds. There is an autopsy of MvR, and putting the info together, prove where the fatal shot came from. Basic forensics.

Heh. The basic forensics have been done - just start reading up about it. Once you get past the wacky theories, there's not much argument and a high percentage probability that the fatal shot was made by an Australian Lewis .303 ground gunner called Popkin. Brown was put under some pressure by the RAF brass to claim for the honour of his service, but was unconvinced himself. Unlike CSI or Mythbusters, there's no easy 'proven' result possible here - no bullet, a target that moves (and rotates) in three dimensions, no likelihood of finding a genuine, locatable bullet-holed piece of fabric, no chance of locating the gun that fired the fatal shot - everyone was using .303 - mostly Vickers or Lewis machine guns or Lee Enfield rifles.

Remember the Baron didn't trundle nicely past straight and level with everyone getting one shot. They were manoeuvring savagely; May to get away, MvR to get a bead on him and Brown to get a bead on him, as well as all the guys blazing away on the ground. The path of a bullet will only eliminate some possibilities.

After he crashed, in the finest traditions of he Australian military, the aircraft was stripped by the soldiers. The carcase of the 'plane was photographed. Probably at this point someone souvenired the bullet which had gone right through the Baron's body.



The real problem today is provenance. Someone turns up with a bit of red fabric or widget, how can you be sure that it really came from that Tripe?

Some collectors and national museums try and establish the provenance as well as they can. Hence the Australian War Memorial (as Mike's said) has a selection of pieces:





The other collection in Australia is held by the RAAF Museum at Point Cook, Victoria. The museum has a selection of pieces which are rotated through display. This is the current one:


Note the size of the typical fabric pieces (at the bottom).

Some of that's from here: http://forum.planetalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=1879

And there's a good page here with contemporary photos:
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/ ... on_06.html

The brand-new Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre museum in New Zealand has a diorama of the crash scene, and a well documented German cross said to be from his aircraft.

Not everything in the pre-war German Aviation Museum could be moved:



And it's important to remember that in the Nazi era the German state and apparatus, such as museums, were not above lying or acting fraudulently regarding their history and artefacts - witness the lies told about the Messerschmitt speed records being claimed for a 'derivative of the 109' despite being nothing of the kind. There certainly was a Fokker Dr.1 in the museum; it certainly was lost at the end of W.W.II; and I think they claimed it was one of Richtofen's aircraft. It certainly was not his last, and not, IIRC all red.

Plenty out there to read before trying to re-invent the wheel, but good luck!

[JDK]

Richthofen's aircraft was dismembered by souvenir hunters. Its engine was donated to the Imperial War Museum in London, where it is still on display.

Is that the quote from Wikipedia? Saw that claim there myself.

Certainly not seen it in the IWM. If they do have it, I believe it's not on show.

[Mike]

Richthofen's aircraft was dismembered by souvenir hunters. Its engine was donated to the Imperial War Museum in London, where it is still on display.

Is that the quote from Wikipedia? Saw that claim there myself.

Certainly not seen it in the IWM. If they do have it, I believe it's not on show.

Interesting. A quick Google sees that claim repeated many times

http://www.theaerodrome.com/guestbook/E ... ch_choice=

"UK visitors may be interested to know that the Oberursel Engine from Fokker DR1 425/17 (better known as the plane in which Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen AKA "The Red Baron" met his untimely demise) resides in a display case at the Imperial War Museum in London as part of their World War I exhibition. There are many things in the Museum that I found very moving but for me to look at the battered engine which had once powered von Richthofen around the skies was a unique experience. Also featured in the same case is a Blue Max medal "Pour la Merite" as well as a glass screen from the aircraft of a downed British Ace (Albert Ball, if my memory serves me correctly)."

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsh ... asp?id=843

"The UR-2 from Baron Manfred von Richthofen's airplane is on display at the Imperial War Museum, London, England."

[JDK]

It's perfectly possible I just missed it!

[oscardeuce]

I've read the books, and the autopsy is pretty convincing the round that penetrated his chest came from the side, not from the aft quarter ( I've dabbled in forensic medicine in the past). Even then the Aussies had good evidence they shot him down from the ground, a "golden BB" took down the famous Red Baron, not the Knightly battle in the air.

[DaveM2]

Some original stuff is on display at Omaka, belonging to Peter Jackson, including a fuselage cross.
There is also some smaller things like goblets, lighter and so on which are in a display case that has a huge photo of his room which is covered in aircraft serial numbers and national markings taken from his victims, the ceiling lamp being an engine! ( Bit hard to make out due to the reflections)

Dave

[JDK]

[Edited]

Thanks for the photos, Dave.

the autopsy is pretty convincing the round that penetrated his chest came from the side, not from the aft quarter

Which proves nothing and eliminates little. Seen a Dr.1 replica manoeuvre? They're more like a shopping cart than a 'plane at times.

Cheers

Last edited by JDK on Wed May 16, 2007 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

[bdk]

Richthofen's aircraft was dismembered by souvenir hunters. Its engine was donated to the Imperial War Museum in London, where it is still on display.

Is that the quote from Wikipedia? Saw that claim there myself.

Certainly not seen it in the IWM. If they do have it, I believe it's not on show.

What actually made me look it up is I remember seeing it there!

[DoraNineFan]

.... Probably at this point someone souvenired the bullet which had gone right through the Baron's body.

According to P.J. Carisella's book, a bullet was found in MVR's wallet in the left breast pocket by medical orderly Corporal E. J. "Ted" McCarty, who was prepping the body for autopsy. McCarty kept the bullet, but it was lost in 1935 when he burned some personal effects after the death of his mother. It's too bad this bullet was lost.

[JDK]

What actually made me look it up is I remember seeing it there!

Cool. I don't. Must pay more attention in class. Where was it, d'you recall? Presumably this is after the major refurbishment of the museum in the 1990s.

[oscardeuce]

As to my OP, it would be interesting to get all the stuff from the plane in one place. Then a better reconstruction could be done tracing the bullet path. This may or may not solve the mystery, but one of the reasons I fly today is I read 'The Red Knight of Germany' as a child.
If there was a to be an accurate reconstruction, even by computer modelling, I'd bet we could tell.

[Fleet16b]

FYI

The seat from the Barons Triplane is on display at the Military Institute in Toronto Canada.
It has been there for many years.
They also have a piece of fabric and I believe they may have his flying boots also.