Warbird Information Exchange

I have been sitting here thinking about the sheer number of a/c that has been restored over the 20 odd years since I started following the warbird scene, and the many great collections that has emerged since the early 80's. Then I realized something. Do these big, private collections actually fly that much anymore? Or has the cost of operations (fuel, insurance, parts, etc.) risen to such a level that the majority of these museums will cease flying in the near future?

I mean, I remember seeing Doug Arnold's FW-190 at Biggin Hill in 1992 and hoped to be around when that beast first flew. Same with the pair of bf-109's Evergreen bought. I photographed them in Ft. Collins in 1994 looking forward to see them grace the skies, but what happened? One was traded to the USAFM and the other one is a static display which to the best of my knowledge has never flown. Has it even run its engine since being completed? Everyone, me included cheered when Kermit Weeks bought the B-24 and B-26 from Tallichet. Gotta admit that my cheering has silenced somewhat today! We all know that the Air Zoo have stopped flying their collection, and that makes me wonder, who is next? What about the other collections like Cavanaugh, Lone Star, EAA, YAF, NWM, Erickson, and of course Weeks and Evergreen. How many of their planes actually fly? How many does even have a valid CofA?

I think that we will see P-51s, Corsairs, and Spitfires fly for years to come due to the sheer number of them around. However when news filter through to these forums of another rare type found somewhere there is a lot of posts with eager anticipation of the first post-rebuild flight of said a/c. I am more sceptic, chances are the a/c will go to one of these collections and don't fly at all!

Maybe I am too negative here, but on one side I'd like to look into the crystal ball and see what the warbird scene looks like in a decade. Then again, I'm not sure if I want to....

T J Johansen
Oslo, NORWAY

Hey Guys, I finally get to sit and post something tonight........hospitals get cranky if you post on their time! I can give a partial answer for these two museums. The Cavanaugh museum keeps approximately eight birds in the air. Insurance costs appear to rise dramatically when approaching ten birds. The Spit has not flown in quite a while, issues with fuel tanks, while the 109 may not ever fly again... time will tell..... For Lone Star, the majority of the WW II warbirds fly with a couple of significant exceptions... ie the P-38 and the A-20. Although it is known that they might fly the A-20 when another A-20 takes to the air. Lone Star keeps 10-12 aircraft licensed and flying during the year. The P-47 is very active along with the B-17, SBD, F6F, F4U-5, B-25, and Spit. The F8F is flying and may now be in the paint shop. Blake can give a better picture than I with Lone Star, since he is the crew chief on Thunderbird. I also keep hearing rumors that the Zoo will at least fly the Navy birds again, but it looks like the P-47 is permanently grounded with the P-39 & P-40......
Alan

I think you need to differentiate between volunteer groups:

NWM flies their AT-6, PT-17, Cub, and PT-19. The B-17 is flying, but I think that has more to do with the EAA loan than the NWM.

YAF flies the B-17, B-25, and C-47. They did fly the Stinson too, but I think it was damaged before the fire.

CWH still flies some stuff. Off the top of my head...the Harvards, Stearman, PT-26s, Firefly, B-25, Lanc, Beech 18, Canso, Yale, and Dak?

We all know about the Air Zoo.

That is about it for the big mid-west/east volunteer groups.

I think of the volunteer groups that the CAF is far and away the biggest flying group, but I was shocked to list just how many CWH planes still fly. Whenever I think CWH I think about the amount of aircraft they don't fly anymore due to sales, the fire, etc. but they still have an impressive collection of flyers.

And the private guys:

War Eagles in NM doesn't fly much. Maybe the AT-6. The grounding happened before Mr. MacGuire passed and was due to insurance.

I was enthused to see two aircraft from the new Tri-State Warbird Museum at the Yankee show (I hope they become a big presence at the area airshows) and Jerry Yagen seems to have quite a few aircraft at shows. Anyone know if Jeff Clyman’s collection from Long Island flies much anymore?

Jim

Mike Smith of Evergreen was a good friend of mine. Mike had planned to sell one of the 109s to pay for the others restoration and use the excess to buy a AD. His death changed everything and has shaped how the Evergreen collection is today. I have no doubt the remaining 109 will never fly. Neither will the P-38. The B-17 needs the spar AD addressed. When you get down to it the P-51 is the only one besides the Tri-motor that ever really flies. 95% of Erickson's stuff has never flown after deliver or in many years. He has a few that stay ready if he want's to go out ie P-38/P-47. With its location (salty/wet Oregon coast in that old hanger I'm sure corrision will a real issue. All the aircraft outside the circus tent suffer a daily barrage of decending seagull waste products. A beautiful collection in a horrible location.

On the West Coast, don't forget the Planes of Fame in Chino, CA.

The P-40, F4U, P-47, and DC-3 of American Airpower Museum fly quite a bit during the season. Don't know about the B-25 however.

Ryan Keough

The Air Museum Planes of Fame flies many aircraft on an ongong basis. The first Saturday of each month has a seminar culminated in flights of aircraft supportive of the theme such as P-38, P-51's, F-86, Mig 15, F8F, Spitfire Mark 9, 14 & 19; Hurricane, P-47, SBD, F3F, FM2, F-4U, F6F(2), SNJ5, Flying Wing, B-25, Zero, P-40, T-33, PT-17, L-5, AD, etc.......

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Tom N

HI WELL NOT EXACTLY A WARBIRD MUSEUM GREG HERRICKS GOLDEN WINGS HAS A PT-19 23 AND TWO 26S ,A PT 17 PLUS A BUNCH OF VINTAGE A/C MOST OF WHICH FLY .HOT TIP OF THE DAY THE LOW WING STINSON TRIMOTOR FLEW ITS POST RESTORATION FLIGHT YESTERDAY ABOUT 4 0CLOCK NO SQUAKS!!IT NOW JOINS THE FORD TRIMOTOR, BUSH MASTER,KRUTZER TRIMOTOR,AND THE OTHER STINSON HIGH WING TRIMOTOR I CANT WAIT TO SEE THEM ALL AIRBORN SOON!!THANKS MIKE

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

Owning and maintaining warbirds in a flyable state with a current annual inspection and proper insurance and flight crew training and progressive maintenance requires truly massive unfiltered quantities of CASH. Free hangar space, volunteer labor, photography and enthusiasm don't pay the bills. It's nice but I have yet to see an insurance company donate free coverage. I've yet to see an IA with lots of V-12 or double row radial expertise do very much for free. They shouldn't. They have paid their dues and deserve to be compensated.
If you look at the cost of operating a B-25, C-47 or fighter on a yearly basis it is staggering and remember the owner's are paying with their after tax income from whatever it is they do for a living. It's like buying an income producing R.E. property with cash and then burning it down to the ground every year Some warbirds are more rewarding than others and more justifiable to keep licensed and flying. The TBM Avenger, which is a neat airplane, is not that particulary excitng to fly,I'm told. You can buy a T-33 flying for about 90 grand. It burns 400 gallons per hour. How much of that do most people want to afford? How many T-33's need to be on the airshow circuit?
Remember also, that when you are in the financial stratosphere that warbird collectors are in, they are hit from every side by competing interests. Their spouse wants them to buy a home in Naples, their kids want them to buy a place in Paris or the ski-slopes, the boat people are trying to put them in a 125' long yacht, the professional sports people are selling sky boxes,and so on and so on. I am only middle class but I imagine the truly wealthy must sometimes feel like the fox being hunted by the hounds and the huntsmen. It's amazing we have anyone collecting warbirds!

I volunteer as a docent at the Airzoo. The 'Zoo stopped flying warbirds several years ago due to insurance increases. The Tri-motor, on the other hand, is grounded for repair and is expected to be flying next Spring. It is true that if the 'Zoo flies warbirds again they will never be flying the P-40, P-47, or P-39. These aircraft are on display in the new facility. The Grumman cats and the Corsair would be the most likely aircraft to fly, if the museum decides flight operations will be resumed. We've heard the same rumors about that possibility, but at this point that is all they are.

However (and I know many of you won't want to hear this or won't agree with me), attendance at the new 'Zoo is much higher than it was at the old facility. So many more people are enjoying the aircraft collection, regardless of whether it flies or not. And the new facility never would have been built had the museum continued on it's previous course.

My two cents-worth. Take it or leave it. I get to see the faces on the little kids and the big kids alike who visit our museum, and I know we wouldn't be able to offer that same experience to them if we were still trying to fly.

John

My hat is off to the Air Zoo for setting an admireable goal of improving the museum experience, educating the public and making the tough choices necessary to get there. We all love to see them in the air, but sometimes that is not the way to go depending on your goal.

Mike

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Mike R. Henniger
Aviation Enthusiast & Photographer
http://www.AerialVisuals.ca
http://www.facebook.com/AerialVisuals

Do you want to find locations of displayed, stored or active aircraft? Then start with the The Locator.
Do you want to find or contribute to the documented history of an aircraft? If so then start with the Airframes Database.

HI KEEPING AN AIRCRAFT AIRWORTHY DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT HAS TO FLY ,AN ANNUAL INSPECTION,PERIODIC ENGINE RUNS,A PITOT STATIC CHECK,MEANS THAT IT IS A AIRWORTHY A/C EVEN IF IT NEVER LEAVES THE GROUND.BUT THATS USUALLY THE FIRST STEP IN MAKING IT A GROUND HOG,DROPPING ANNUAL INSPECTIONS SOON MAKES IT A FIXTURE IN THE CORNER AND THEN A STATIC DISPLAY.INS COVERAGE CAN BE PUT ON AT ANYTIME BUT IS NOT REQUIRED TO KEEP AN AIRWORTHY A/C AIRWORTHY.THANKS MIKE

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IF YOU CAN FIND IT WE CAN FIX IT

Did the 38 ever fly after completion, or was it trucked to Oregon?

T J Johansen

The P-38 flew to Oregon. During a visit back in 1998 just after the 38 had arrived, administrators at Evergreen Air Museum said that it won't be flown again due to its rarity and pointed to what happened with the Tillamook P-38/Jeff Ethell accident.

Dennis

After the P-38 was ferried to Portland by Gary Levitz it was there until the museum in McMinnville was built. Alan Zanuzoski flew it to Mac taking 90 minutes for a 10-15 flight. The bottom line reason why the P-38 won't be flown is that it's one of Mike's special birds and Mr. Smith won't allow it. The same goes for the ME-109 and a couple of others. Mike would have flown them all. Keep in mind, the museum has no say in what flies.and when. Mr Smith owns all the Evergreen airplanes excepy those donated directly to or on loan to the museum itself. I was told by a museum officer that their greatest fear is that they'll show up one morning and all the airplanes will be gone. It seems a shame to restore aircraft to perfect flying condition and then just park them.