P-51 Mustang Crash at Camarillo Airport - July 2007

[korndog]

God Speed
To the P-51 drivers out there: does the pax inthe back seat affect CG much? That transition may have changed the flight charateristics enough to place him out of his usual routine.

I was wondering the same thing.

I have been lurking around here for a while and stop by the Mustang sites from time to time. I have had a passion for these aircraft since I learned to fly at Santa Monica airport as a younger man, where I sat in awe as what I believe is Cottonmouth pulled up to the runway right beside me. I saw this helmeted figure in the cockpit and I was hooked forever.

One could not imagine 20+ years later that I would happen to be driving by Camarillo airport on a Sunday morning, where a man that I knew had just perished in one of the planes that moved me so much. The thing is, I knew this man as a member of a club where we both belonged and played golf. I din't know him well, and I never knew he had a passion for warbirds or could ever imagine that he owned a Mustang. I'm sorry I didn't take the time to get to know him better, as he was a neighbor who obviously shared similar interests. You never know where you might find a kindred spirit. I will attend his service on Friday and pray for his family.


KD

[Dave Fish]

..........this pilot had the best instructor a p51 pilot could have, it takes a special person to be able to even give instruction in these difficult to fly and sensitive warbirds. he has at least 30 yrs experience with p51's.....this instructor was actually being very cautious in this instance and knows the plane and pilot well.....

EDowning wrote:

By the way, the "instructor" was Matt Jackson, you couldn't ask for any one better to do this instruction. He was even able to get Tom Cruise flying his Mustang. Few have the instruction background and the Mustang experience that Matt has. I also feel bad for him.
_________________
Eric




This is the first time I have seen the instructor identified...as I stated earlier, he has not been identified, to my knowledge, by the Ventura County media.

I can only guess as to how he feels...And as our hearts go out to John, they should also go out to Matt.

[gooseandsoda]

Just curious... what is the procedure if you bounce an aircraft like this on landing? Do you add power and go around? What would an expereienced warbird pilot suggest? Just learning to fly... hope this isn't to rookie of a question. Our prayers and thoughts go out to the family!

[mlenoch]

In a bounce, you would use normal taildragger recovery. What would you do if you bounced a Cub? A Citabria? A Stearman. Nothing different. Add just a little power (only a little) and hold the attitude. It will drop again, not pretty, but will hopefully settle down from the screw up. (Directional conrol straight down the runway is still mandatory all through this.) Anything else just makes the over control/reaction worse.

To answer the question, in a Mustang, a go-around does not need full power initially. Partial power is needed to stop the descent and begin a gradual acceleration. Once the airplane is accelerating, more power can be added. If another landing attempt is planned, full power will never be needed.

A back seater at 200lbs+, is noticable, but hardly dramatic. It is easier to flare, very slightly easier to stall......but you have to very aware to note these differences.

Hope this helps.
VL

[b29flteng]

Just speculating here. Is it possible he got below the single engine minimum control speed, applied full power and then not having enough rudder to counteract the torque? Is that why you apply partial power to recover before applying full power if so desired?

[skydaddy61]

Just speculating here. Is it possible he got below the single engine minimum control speed, applied full power and then not having enough rudder to counteract the torque? Is that why you apply partial power to recover before applying full power if so desired?

The P-51 has a single engine, so "minimum control speed" is the stall speed. I believe there's enough rudder available to counter the torque, but it has to be applied. It may be that the pilot cobbed the throttle and torqued over.

Regardless, it's a sobering reminder than a moment's inattention or lapse in judgement can get you killed.

[Jack Cook]

I remember one of my rides in the P-51 here. Jim went to 12,000' and set her up in landing configuration. On the imaginary short final he went quickly to take-off power and the 51 just rolled over and tucked it's nose down even with full opposite rudder. A great display of the raw power of the machine It's very sobering imaging that happening to someone

Very same thing on one of my rides Jack, 51's are so very powerful, too much engine, too little airframe, very unforgiving, yet when you tame a Mustang ... performance and power are simply wonderful. ... It's the taming that takes many, many years of flight hours. ... If you can tame a Mustang at all.

[skydaddy61]

They lost a few Corsairs BITD on waveoffs, too. Same issue. I wasn't sure whether the issue was having enough rudder, or using it in time. Thanks for the PIREP.

[b29flteng]

By stating single engine minimum control speed I meant that the airplane will stall at 70 mph., but if you get below, say 80 mph. and apply full power you won't have enough airspeed to keep from torque rolling with full rudder deflection. What say you Mustang drivers?

[mlenoch]

Everyone's thinking is on the right track. However, there is no speed per-se that identfies a minimum for a sort of Vmc. Rather, there is a power setting that still allows full control authority. It is about 30" to 35" of manifold. At this power all torque, p-factor, gyroscopic and swirl effects (enough already!) are controlable. Note: contolable, but not gone. This is a great power setting to use for the beginning of a go-around, etc.
If it were me, I would want at least 160++ knots if I were to shove full power. I'd want to be sure I could have complete control at all times.
Jack Cook's Corsair pictures show several birds 'flying' to the left of the deck on a carrier wave-off. Likely due to torque as was previously said. In American birds, the over-torquing crashes end up left of the center line. (Is that why the carrier islands are built right of the center line?)
Again, hope this helps.
VL

[camshaw]

Its sad to hear of the accident and great loss of a good person. Having had a best friends father killed in a simulair type of accident I can't help to wonder if a simple head loop style rollbar would prevent head injuries in sport planes and warbirds. Coming from a auto racing/drag racing background I have seen what a properly installed and engineered roll bar can do. Besides the asthetic unappeal of a roll bar is there any other reason why such safety implements aren't installed? Just pondering the idea.. Longerons would supply addequate regidity for anchoring of said bars...any take on it? I've seen reno air racers with them before...food for thought?

[Bill Greenwood]

As for roll bars or passenger protection it is one of those things that is a good idea, but doesn't always make it on the " to do" list. When I bought my plane someone had removed the rollover support from behind the rear seat. After Charlie Hilliard"s accident in the Fury at Sun N Fun, I got the shop to borow an orignal support from Doug Champlin and make a duplicate. It may not be the differece in a crash, but I feel better knowing we have done what we can for passenger protection.

[Scott Rose]

It may not be the differece in a crash, but I feel better knowing we have done what we can for passenger protection.

I was talking to Rob Holland at Geneseo about his wearing a parachute. I pointed out that odds are an incident with his little stunt plane would be too fast and low for a parachute. He replied that he would hate to have the opportunity to use it and not have it with him.

So I guess its better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

[b29flteng]

Thanks Bill, that needed to be said. I wish more of the "Big" warbird folks would do what you did. It would certainly save a few lives. The same could be said of the seats (ensuring that they are well secured). Don Hinz was killed in the CAFs P-51C due to the seat breaking loose during the crash landing. Another thing to consider. When you fly an aircraft infrequently and have an emergency, your instinct is to fall back to the training you received in a more familiar aircraft. For instance if you fly a Boeing 767 for a living and have several thousands of hours in it, you are used to the way it flys, etc. On the weekend you fly a T-28 with about 30 hours in type, 10 hours over the last 6 months. You have an engine quit just after you break ground, what airspeeds are going to be going through your head? The 767 or the T28s? Too late, you just hit the ground! You've practiced all of the emergencies in the sim for the 767, when was your last sim ride in the T-28? Just something to think about....