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 Post subject: Douglas TBD Devastator
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:25 pm 
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A quick question for you experts out there. :wink:

Just curious if there are any surviving examples of the Douglas TBD Devastator (besides on the bottom of the Pacific Ocean :? )?

John


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:30 pm 
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Yes John, there is definitely one already located on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean as well. :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:53 pm 
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I believe there are two others in divable water off some island in the Pacific. Can't remeber the name of it at the moment, but I'm sure the Navy lays claim to that too!.
Jerry

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:17 pm 
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There are currently no examples of the Douglas TBD-1 "Devastator" preserved anywhere in the world -- a situation I am committed to seeing rectified.

I know of three wrecks that have been definitively located underwater, one that is rumored... and possibly some artifacts of one other that I speculate might survive on land.

By Bu. No., they are...

0280 -- Reportedly crashed and burned 5000 feet up the side of Mt. Haleakala in Hawaii on 4/29/41 -- crew all killed. I've made inquiries, but haven't confirmed if any trace of it remains.

0298 -- Located and documented in approx 50 feet of water. The engine has separated from the airframe and the wreck is wedged tightly under a masive coral outcropping on the slope of a reef in the lagoon at Jaluit atoll, Republic of the Marshall Islands.

0353 -- Located and documented off the coast of Florida in approx 500 feet of water. A veteran of the Battle of the Coral Sea later lost in training. The wreck is badly damaged and corroded -- as well as the subject of a series of ugly legal battles between collector Doug Champlin and the US Navy.

0377 -- Ditched and sank in "100 fathoms" off the coast of San Diego 3/14/41. I've heard rumors that this wreck was located, but is presumed to be in bad condition. If anybody knows anything more solid, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

1515 -- The best known example of the type, located and documented in approx 120 feet of water. The plane is virtually intact and resting on a flat sand and coral surface of the bottom of the lagoon at Jaluit atoll, Republic of the Marshall Islands. An extensive survey carried out in October of last year judged this aircraft to be an excellent candidate for future recovery, conservation, and exhibition.


Last edited by Russ Matthews on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:43 pm 
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conservation, and exhibition at the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola, Florida.

:(
:cry:
I don't want one on display. I want one flying! :wink:


I'm going to my room to scream into a pillow now. :(

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:51 pm 
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Nathan wrote:
I want one flying!


That would be extremely cool, but given that all of the surviving airframes have been immersed in saltwater for 64+ years, I don't belive that it is very realistic.

I think our best best would be if someone were to tackle a Texas Aircraft Factory/Flugwerks style reproduction. I'd sure like to see something like that on the airshow circuit! I wonder how much it would cost? And how long it would take?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:37 pm 
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Lets get one on display first, then get one in the air.

A combat vet would be awesome.

like the Midway SBD 8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:37 pm 
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For those who would like one flying, if I remember the info on the TBD correctly, they were dogs when loaded down with a torpedo, they made easy targets for fighters and AA. Maybe that's why none survive ?

From the NAVAL Historical Center site;

Quote:
Douglas TBD-1 "Devastator" Torpedo Planes
The Douglas TBD-1 was the Navy's first widely-used monoplane shipboard plane. Designed to carry a heavy torpedo below the fuselage, it was necessarily a large aircraft and its 900-horsepower Pratt & Whitney R-1830 "Twin Wasp" radial engine could drive it to a maximum speed of slightly over 200 miles per hour. The XTBD-1 first flew in April 1935 and 129 production TBD-1s were delivered in 1937-39, rapidly replacing biplanes in the Navy's carrier torpedo squadrons. The type gave U.S. Fleet aviators valuable experience with what was, for the time, a rather high-performance aircraft. "Normal" operational attrition whittled away at the TBD inventory, which peaked at about 120 in 1939 and had declined to barely more than a hundred at the start of the Pacific War.

Though the new Grumman TBF "Avenger" was entering production as its intended replacement, the TBD-1 was the Pacific Fleet's sole torpedo plane for the first part of the war against Japan. It seemingly did well in the raids of February-March 1942 and in the Battle of the Coral Sea in early May, serving in both the torpedo attack and high-level bombing roles. However, in about an hour's time on 4 June 1942, during the Battle of Midway, the TBD entered the annals of Naval history as a synonym for costly futility. Three squadrons of TBD-1s made heroic torpedo attacks on the Japanese carrier force, losing all but four of forty-one aircraft while achieving no hits. Old and slow, with a weak defensive armament and without self-sealing fuel tanks, the TBD had proven horribly vulnerable to enemy fighters, though this vulnerability was to a great extent typical of all torpedo attacks against well-defended ships.

At the end of the Midway battle, the Navy had just thirty-nine TBDs left. New "Avengers" quickly took their place on Pacific Fleet flight decks, but the older planes continued to serve (briefly) in the Atlantic Fleet and in training squadrons until late 1943. The twenty-one TBDs left in the Navy inventory at the start of 1944 were mainly employed as stationary hulks for maintainance training, and all were gone by the end of that year. There are no surviving TBDs today, though hope exists for recovery, restoration and exhibit of a plane lost at sea.

The TBD's short production life, and specialized intended employment, precluded much variety in the type. The first production unit was converted to a floatplane, designated TBD-1A, and used for tests well into World War II. With the 1941 adoption of "popular" names for Navy aircraft, the TBD began to be called the "Devastator", but for most of its operational life, it was just known as the TBD-1.

TBD-1 characteristics:


Dimensions: Wing Span, 50 feet; Length, 35 feet; Wing Area, 422 square feet.

Weights: Empty, 5712 pounds; Gross, 9444 pounds
Powerplant: One 900 horsepower Pratt & Whitney R-1830-64 double-row radial engine.

Crew: Three men -- Pilot, Torpedo Officer/Navigator (not always carried) and Radioman/Gunner.

Armament: One 1949-pound Mark XIII Torpedo or up to 1500 pounds of bombs; Two .30 caliber machine guns (one fixed, firing forward through the engine cowling; one flexibly mounted in the after cockpit).

Performance (with torpedo): Maximum Speed, 207 m.p.h. (@ 8,000 feet & weight of 9444 pounds).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:42 pm 
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Thanks for the info guys!!!!

I've always been fond of the Devastator since it was one of the first models I put together as a kid and the fact that I was able to meet Ensign George H. Gay at Oshkosh back in the mid 80's. He was the only surviving member of Torpedo Squadron eight from the USS Hornet during the battle of Midway.

John


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:48 am 
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I'm fond of the ol' TBD too (if you couldn't guess) and filled with admiration for the men who flew them in those early dark days of WWII.

Unfortunately, I missed the opportunity to meet George Gay, but I have had the privledge of speaking with several "Devastator" vets -- guys who flew the early raids (like Jaluit), guys who helped put down the Japanese carrier Shoho at Coral Sea, as well as the last surviving TBD crewman who knows what it was like to face the Kido Butai at Midway.

Funny thing is, a lot of those men have very fond memories of their plane. When first introduced to the fleet (in 1936), it was actually considered something of a "hot rod" and there was tremendous prestige associated with being chosen for Devastator duty.

It's true that later developments rendered the TBD nearly obsolete at the start of hostilities -- but, the aircraft and crews never-the-less performed well. The losses inflicted on the "torprons" at Midway had more to do with a breakdown in tactics than with deficiencies in the Devastator design. Any torpedo plane flying unescorted into the midst of an alerted and well defended enemy fleet would likely have suffered the same fate. In fact, six Grumman TBFs operating off of Midway did just that, and only one of them (barely) returned.

In addition, the Mk. XIII aerial torpedo they carried into battle was prone to beak up or malfunction -- and thus required them to drop at extremely low speeds and altitudes all while flying in a straight line (perhaps the least promising circumstances with regard to survival in aerial combat).

I'm sure that large weight hanging down into the slipstream must have degraded the aircraft's performance even further -- but, fortunately the pilots of any future reproduction would not have to contend with the mass of a genuine "warshot" (not to mention the advantage of nobody shooting at them)!


Last edited by Russ Matthews on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:06 am 
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There's a section in George Gay's book, Sole Survivor, where he talks about how much he wished he could see a Devastator fly at an airshow. He suggested that a flying reproduction should be built with Douglas' help.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:50 am 
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TBDude covered it well; I am also a huge fan of the Devastator, and have likewise heard it was a very pleasant aircraft to fly. Douglas wasn't known for building dogs on a regular basis, y'know. ;) The trouble wasn't the plane, it was the pace of progress and poor tactics which doomed the valiant crews.

Interestingly, both of the aircraft at Jalauit and 0353 in the Atlantic are all VT-5 veterans... if we can't raise the Yorktown, let's at least get some of her original aircraft on display.

Lynn


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:55 am 
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Is there a chance that their might be one in Great lake's ? :) But Wait forget it ! :? The NAVY will probably claim that it is a Time Capsul for their future museum project :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:36 am 
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No, there were no TBDs lost in the Great Lakes.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:45 am 
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Is it just me or are the Navy guys screwballs in regards to private recoveries? Brewster F4U, TBD etc. Why are they and the USAF so adamant that all warbirds belong in static state... I love the armed forces, but this is the one aspect of them that bugs the hell out of me. Also, if they havent made the effort to recover the aircraft in the past 60 years it should be "up for grabs" IMHO. I even wrote an essay about the subject for school and I also forwarded it to several congressmen and senators. Just my 2 cents opinion...

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