Warbird Information Exchange

the 100th f-22 raptor was delivered to the usaf on 8/29 in marietta georgia. it's going to elmendorf afb in alaska. amazing that quantity has been cranked out already!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

What was the cost of the 100 F-22 s? I recently saw an aritcle from a defense analyst that had several complaints about the program, don't have it handy but the gist was. 1. The plane has become too compex as each defense contractor saw a chance to get in on the gravy train by putting their systems or gagets into the design; 2. Thus it becomes too expensive and may be less reliable than originally planned; 3. Our F-16 s and F-15s still have air superiority and the F-22 is overkill, at least at this time, 4 what other defense programs could have used some of these funds, (not to mention any domestic needs, my words not his)

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

While I am sure millions of dollars were wasted in cost overruns etc., at least I would hope that most if not all of that money stayed in this country. I also would prefer to be ahead of the technology curve instead of behind it. Maybe some slight comfort anyway.

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Tthe F-22A Raptor is an amazing airplane. Just to put a "warbird" slant on this - I am really looking forward to seeing the Raptor in the air for the first time the weekend of Sept. 7-9 at NAS Oceana, particularly in the USAF Heritage Flight with an F-15E and Two F-86 Sabres (Ed Shipley and Dale Snodgrass).

The Raptor is amazing. I love all flying machines, and I don't want to start a big arguement, but do we really need the F-22?
Seems like the F-15 is unbeatable.
Jerry

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it really doesn't matter..... now..... we already paid for it, but i see your point!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

jerry brings up a valid point. i'd like randy haskins view, his opinion will have the most validity as the f-15 is his office. yo randy!!

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tom d. friedman - hey!!! those fokkers were messerschmitts!! * without ammunition, the usaf would be just another flying club!!! * better to have piece of mind than piece of tail!!

Have you not seen Independence Day?

Good heavens, what happens when the squiddish aliens attack? What will Randy Quaid and the President fly if we don't have the most up-to-date aircraft?

Sheesh.

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The F-22 program is developing the next-generation air superiority fighter for the United States Air Force to counter emerging worldwide threats. The F-22 Raptor is designed to ensure that America’s armed forces retain air dominance. This means complete control of the airspace over an area of conflict, thereby allowing freedom to attack and freedom from attack at all times and places for the full spectrum of military operations. Air dominance provides the ability to defend our forces from enemy attack and to attack adversary forces without hindrance from enemy aircraft.

During the initial phases of deployment into an area of conflict, the first aircraft to arrive are the most vulnerable because they face the entire warfighting capability of an adversary. The F-22’s state-of-the-art technology, advanced tactics, and skilled aircrew will ensure air dominance from the outset of such situations. It is designed to penetrate enemy airspace and achieve a first-look, first-kill capability against multiple targets. The F-22 is characterized by a low-observable, highly maneuverable airframe; advanced integrated avionics; and aerodynamic performance allowing supersonic cruise without afterburner.

The F-22 is an air dominance fighter with much-improved capability over current Air Force aircraft. It is widely regarded as the most advanced fighter in the world, combining a revolutionary leap in technology and capability with reduced support requirements and maintenance costs. It will replace the F-15 as America's front-line, air superiority fighter, with deliveries to operational units in 2005.

Raptor to counter "emerging worldwide threats". Who are these threats? Iran? N Korea? Perhaps at some future point China? Randy might have some insight on this. I don't know too much about this issue, but one of the points of the aritcle was that we have superiority now, and the Raptor is overkill. Wish I had the aritcle, it might have come from the Air Force magazine I saw on the newsstand. In any event the author was a defense dept analyst or some such, as I recall. As a very uneducated guess, it would seem we need to develop advanced tecnology, but having 100 or 200 F-22s produced right away may be premature against a threat we don't face. They aren't much use on the streets of Bagdad. One thing that has the ring of baloney is "reduced support and maintenance costs". No way any govt or defense dept contrctor is willingly going to reduce costs. If they got less guys changing oil they wiil have more servicing computer avionics. Our future threat may be more economic with China than miltary.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

The future is now

A derivative of the Su-27 'Flanker', the Su-37 is a super-maneuverable thrust vectoring fighter. Designed from an Su-35 prototype, the Su-37 test aircraft (designated T10M-11) made its maiden flight in April 1996 from the Zhukovsky flight testing center near Moscow. The Su-37 powerplant features more standard thrust than all earlier 'Flanker' variants, including the Su-35. In addition, the hydraulically actuated nozzles of its Lyulka/Saturn AL-37FU (Forsazh Upravlaemoye meaning 'afterburning steerable') engines are steerable -15 to +15 degrees along the vertical plane. Thrust control is fully integrated into the flight control system, requiring no input from the pilot. An emergency system can automatically return the nozzles to level flight in the event of an onboard failure. The Su-37 has the newer, more powerful, NIIP NO-11M pulse-Doppler phased-array nose radar. A rearward-facing missile system and NIIP NO-12 rear-radar will give the pilot the ability to fire at enemy aircraft behind the Su-37, in addition to the front. While the Su-37 is the first Russian aircraft to feature thrust vector control comparable to that of the American F-22, it may not be the last. A new axisymmetrical (three-dimensional) nozzle is currently being developed by Lyulka for the future Sukhoi S-55 aircraft, a single-engined version of the Su-35. Nozzles are also being readied to make current Su-35s TVC capable.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/69832/rus ... mo_flight/ Su-37 SUPER FLANKER

Prime contractor: Sukhoi

Powerplant: two Saturn/ Lyul'ka AL-31FU afterburning turbofans

This is the most powerful aspect of the Russian fighter industry. It outclasses every other fighter in the world. The thrust vectoring nozzles and canards give it maneuverability that surpasses that of the F-22. This thrust vectoring system allows the aircraft to maintain its stability at high angles of attack and at low airspeed when conventional control systems are not functional. The Su-37 also features backward firing missiles evident on the Su-35. The Su-37 includes the vertical tail fins that are on all the Su-27 variants. There have only been a few test planes made and they have performed at the Mosaero show. After this it was included in the Farnborough Í96 Air show. At the air shows it performs a "stunt" that was first created by the Russian test pilot Victor Georgievich Pugachev. This tactic features the plane stalling and pulling its nose up to 90 degrees and then quickly flicking itself back into the original position. When done properly the plane should stay level but still lose some speed. Most thrust vectoring aircraft can still perform this maneuver. One pilot has died doing this maneuver because he failed to regain consciousness because of the high G's. The Su-37 uses unstable integral tri-plane, this uses small specific load acting on the wing, high power-to-weight ratio, integral electrical remote control system and power plant TVC feature, gives the aircraft the aircraft super agility, increased range of controlled flight layout. The cockpit is fitted with four liquid crystal displays for navigation data, system monitors, and a conditions control panel. The plane uses a side short-travel control stick instead of a central stick, and strain-gauging engine thrust controls. Kronstadt produces avionics for the aircraft. The Su-37 has the ability to carry up to 14 missiles with 12 hard points. The aircraft uses one GSh-301 30mm gun with rate of fire of about 1,500 rounds per minute. With its multifunction, forward-looking, NO-11M pulse Doppler phased array radar, the Su-37 can track up to 15 targets simultaneously. NO-11M is made the Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design. No more Su-37s exist, the first prototype was destroyed in a test flight and the second was made into an Su-35. The Su-37 was pronounced "dead" by the Russian government but Sukhoi could be making plans to sell this plane to China and India. The Su-37 has a max speed of about mach 2.3.

Yes it is a great a/c but the F-15 is 30+ years old. Technology moves forward and you can not afford to play catch up. ( How old is the car you drive, computer you use etc....) We paid a heavy price at the beginning of WWII by not having a modern military.
Military planners have to look into the future 20-30 yrs and with the design times needed now you can not wait until you go to war and say "hey we need that plane now".

I want our forces to have the best and leave no doubt who has air supirority.

My 2c

Mike

Mike, I may be the wrong one to use as an example of how old my car is. My newest is 15 years old, my airport car is 31 years old. Hey, if patiina is a good thing on furniture, why not cars? My best airplane is 62 years old, my Cub 61 years old and my transportation Bonanaza is barely broken in at 15 years old. I don't own a cell phone, kinda waiting for that fad to pass by, sort of like rear entry ski boots.

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Bill Greenwood
Spitfire N308WK

You got me there! Maybe I should of said it would be like Richard Petty still driving an updated 77 Olds Cutlass in races.

Most of what the F-22 can do is still classified but some interesting stuff has come out. The radar is supposed to have an attack capability itself by using a directed beam to fry enemy radars and electronics. They also have a command and control capability and might end up controlling UCAV's. There's lots of info out there but you have to watch out for political motivated miss information both pro and con.

Mike

I will not say that we can fight the next war with F-15's, but I will say that most armies build equipment to fight the last war better. In some cases, this is a functional approach, as warfare does not change as rapidly as most people have thought.

The US reaction at the outset of WWII was not due to obsolete equipment, but a poverty of equipment. The next war, against China, is going to be fought with large quantities of men and material. After all, it takes a lot of stuff to kill 2 Billion Chinamen. These aircraft, such as F22 and whatever comes next, are only prototypes for mass production fighters which will be made in time of war. The question is not whether we have the fighter, the question is how many fighters do we need and how can we get them quickly. Personally, I think the next war is going to be fought with UAV's and command and control ships, with redundancy in numbers of CnC ships so the UAV's don't get left flying without direction.

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