Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:54 am
It sounds like you met the village idiot. Pinheads like that make the rest of us look bad. Park on our ramp anytime.
D
D
Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:08 pm
As for the lower than normal fighter turnout - Keep in mind the other event that was going on the same weekend.
Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:16 pm
I think if you go back and survey the numbers and types in attendence that you will find that there are ebbs and lows. The fact that fuel prices continue to go up and Midland only pays for half the fuel used in getting "Their" airplanes home does not help matters. You also need to look at the CAF inventory, the basic numbers continue to grow. That said the growth has not been in the "guns, bombs and sexiness department" but are trainers, transports and warbugs. Throw in the losses that have occured, FM-2 gone, He-111 gone, Tracker gone, P-51C in restoration, Lodestar gone and another 2 in restoration. Throw in other maintenance issues, weather, family and work issues (my last Sho was 2001) and there are ups and downs. If Midland wants all their airplanes to come "Home" for Sho, there needs to be more incentives for those who can go, instead of making needed funds at a show closer to unit's home base.
Bob
ODS/CAF
Bob
ODS/CAF
Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:49 pm
Hmmm...Think Bill's "none to glad" may be taken two ways! Seems they would have been VERY gald to see him arrive! 
Anyways, combining what both Bill and Dan have said, I think the future of the organization will be dependent upon an influx of "new blood" - the younger generations, plus money, and volunteer effort. The work by Gary and Company on Ol' 927's a good example of the latter two, as is So Cal's PBJ project, and Texas Raiders.
Seems that today, keeping these venerable aircraft not only airworthy, but "show-worthy" has become outrageously expensive. If they don't fly, go to shows, etc., they don't generate the necessary income to remain that way. Unless there's a donor with deep pockets. And corporate sponsors don't necessarily mean "flying billboards".
Jus' my two cents worth.
Anyways, combining what both Bill and Dan have said, I think the future of the organization will be dependent upon an influx of "new blood" - the younger generations, plus money, and volunteer effort. The work by Gary and Company on Ol' 927's a good example of the latter two, as is So Cal's PBJ project, and Texas Raiders.
Seems that today, keeping these venerable aircraft not only airworthy, but "show-worthy" has become outrageously expensive. If they don't fly, go to shows, etc., they don't generate the necessary income to remain that way. Unless there's a donor with deep pockets. And corporate sponsors don't necessarily mean "flying billboards".
Jus' my two cents worth.
Re: show
Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:10 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:There were a lot of planes at Midland, and lots to see. I too miss the days of more fighters and bombers, and I don't relish the seemingly inevitalble and sucessuful shift away from the great combat planes of WWII to the modern stuff. I am kind of partial to wars we won, maybe just a personal quirk. The first CAF guy I spoke to after landing made it pretty clear that he was none too glad to see me and/or the Spitfire. BUT THE UTMOST NEED OF THE CAF IS AN INFLUX OF YOUNGER MEMBERS, ALSO MORE LADIES AND MINORITIES. If you look at age, gender etc., our group looks pretty old and white. Hey,everybody do their part. I brought a 22 year old son with me, maybe Doug can bring those young nieces he is always pictured with.
Bill, you have great insight and I agree with your assesment about where the CAF needs to go! Our people are the key to everything and I believe your arrival experience was a result of ramp stress by the people on it and probably started with the way you were handeled on arrival; was it a 10 mile final?
Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:12 pm
Things aren't just tough for the CAF. (obvious quote of the day)
I can sympathize with the need for young blood in the warbird community. At our museum our membership seems to be getting more grey with each passing year. It is hard to attract people willing to sacrifice their free time for a museum or organization like the CMF or the CAF.
I'm just a young guy, but I get the feeling life is a lot busier than it used to be. So the changes in our world: needing to work tons of over-time, needing a two income family system, doing extra work outside of work hours (and not getting paid for it) and not having time to relax really puts a strain on organizations that people WOULD volunteer with if they only had the time.
I'm quite busy with my work, but I've been able to help my museum with activities that I can do from home, such as fundraising and creation of the newsletter.
What I really wish I could be doing is flying the planes, working on them, and restoring them, but I can't do that too easily because of the commute time to and from the museum, especially after an already busy day at work is too much. There's also my need for down-time that prevents me from being as involved as much as I want to be.
But, on the bright side, I posted looking to see how many young WIX'ers there are on here and I was pleasantly surprised with the amount of "younger" people truly interested in warbirds.
Maybe like what "Top Gun" did for the Navy, we need a really sweet icon of a movie that exposes the beauty and grace of warbirds to a new generation. Then again there have been movies like Memphis Belle, Battle of Britain, and Iron Eagles IV (or whatever that one was).
We could pretty much start a new thread on the tangent this one has gone on.
Cheers,
David
I can sympathize with the need for young blood in the warbird community. At our museum our membership seems to be getting more grey with each passing year. It is hard to attract people willing to sacrifice their free time for a museum or organization like the CMF or the CAF.
I'm just a young guy, but I get the feeling life is a lot busier than it used to be. So the changes in our world: needing to work tons of over-time, needing a two income family system, doing extra work outside of work hours (and not getting paid for it) and not having time to relax really puts a strain on organizations that people WOULD volunteer with if they only had the time.
I'm quite busy with my work, but I've been able to help my museum with activities that I can do from home, such as fundraising and creation of the newsletter.
What I really wish I could be doing is flying the planes, working on them, and restoring them, but I can't do that too easily because of the commute time to and from the museum, especially after an already busy day at work is too much. There's also my need for down-time that prevents me from being as involved as much as I want to be.
But, on the bright side, I posted looking to see how many young WIX'ers there are on here and I was pleasantly surprised with the amount of "younger" people truly interested in warbirds.
Maybe like what "Top Gun" did for the Navy, we need a really sweet icon of a movie that exposes the beauty and grace of warbirds to a new generation. Then again there have been movies like Memphis Belle, Battle of Britain, and Iron Eagles IV (or whatever that one was).
We could pretty much start a new thread on the tangent this one has gone on.
Cheers,
David
Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:18 pm
The CAF is moving in the right direction and addressing some issues that really need attention.
It’s my understanding that the issue of concession companies imposing exclusive clauses on airshow organizers is finally being addressed at a high level, for example. That was one of the most frustrating things I had to deal with when I was an airshow coordinator for several CAF aircraft.
It’s my understanding that the issue of concession companies imposing exclusive clauses on airshow organizers is finally being addressed at a high level, for example. That was one of the most frustrating things I had to deal with when I was an airshow coordinator for several CAF aircraft.
Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:28 pm
The "Graying" of the warbird community has and will always be a problem. The way to get younger people involved will take the best efforts of all those already waist deep or deeper in the community. Part of the issue is money. The young pilots, mechanics and supports are busy doing their best to start and raise their families. If it isn't the home life, it is the work place, as these folks are the ones starting their climb up the ladder towards sucess. These problems have been beat to death under the tail of the airplane at shows or in the round table of a Squadron staff meeting.
I did not get involved myself until 94 when I was 37, my kids were 16 and 10 and I was a Senior Chief in the Navy pushing twenty years. Part of it was I needed to do something and I always loved the warbirds. Part of it was the wife was ready for me to get the hell out of the house and find a hobby. It all came together when I met the local CAF folks as they were handling the ground support for the aircraft involved in a 50th anniversary of D-Day reenactment at Virginia Beach. That started a 13 year run, including seven years as the Squadron's Ops O. Some was hard, some was easy but it always involved great people and airplanes.
I know the problem as do most of those that will read this. I am open to all and any help in coming to a decision on how to attack this problem of the "graying" of our community.
Bob
I did not get involved myself until 94 when I was 37, my kids were 16 and 10 and I was a Senior Chief in the Navy pushing twenty years. Part of it was I needed to do something and I always loved the warbirds. Part of it was the wife was ready for me to get the hell out of the house and find a hobby. It all came together when I met the local CAF folks as they were handling the ground support for the aircraft involved in a 50th anniversary of D-Day reenactment at Virginia Beach. That started a 13 year run, including seven years as the Squadron's Ops O. Some was hard, some was easy but it always involved great people and airplanes.
I know the problem as do most of those that will read this. I am open to all and any help in coming to a decision on how to attack this problem of the "graying" of our community.
Bob
Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:41 pm
planenutti wrote:The "Graying" of the warbird community has and will always be a problem. The way to get younger people involved will take the best efforts of all those already waist deep or deeper in the community. Part of the issue is money. The young pilots, mechanics and supports are busy doing their best to start and raise their families. If it isn't the home life, it is the work place, as these folks are the ones starting their climb up the ladder towards sucess. These problems have been beat to death under the tail of the airplane at shows or in the round table of a Squadron staff meeting.
I did not get involved myself until 94 when I was 37, my kids were 16 and 10 and I was a Senior Chief in the Navy pushing twenty years. Part of it was I needed to do something and I always loved the warbirds. Part of it was the wife was ready for me to get the heck out of the house and find a hobby. It all came together when I met the local CAF folks as they were handling the ground support for the aircraft involved in a 50th anniversary of D-Day reenactment at Virginia Beach. That started a 13 year run, including seven years as the Squadron's Ops O. Some was hard, some was easy but it always involved great people and airplanes.
I know the problem as do most of those that will read this. I am open to all and any help in coming to a decision on how to attack this problem of the "graying" of our community.
Bob
You are cool; hang in there!
Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:15 pm
Fool that I am I shall try to shed some light and make some corrections about the CAF Airsho.
First, ALL CAF AIRPLANES ARE EXPECTED TO COME TO THE HOMECOMING AIRSHO. That is part of the aircraft assignment letter each unit SIGNS (legally binding document) when they get an airplane. NOWHERE in that letter does it say that the Airsho will reimburse ANY fuel. The FACT is that we've been able to give fuel to airplanes coming to the show ever since I've been Airsho chairman. However, the amount of money I've had to spend on fuel has remained fixed: the cost of fuel has gone up dramatically. I've been able to pay MORE than half fuel to CAF members (as we were able to do last year) if there is money to do so after the bills are paid. I sympathize with everyone in the CAF who squawks about the money to come to Midland, but it should be considered as a cost incurred when a unit agrees to take on an airplane. And, if your unit contacts me or the Vice President of Operations well in advance and tells us you can't come to Airsho because of distance, money, time, mechanical issues, we usually can work something out. But, the fact remains, the airplanes are all supposed to come to Headquarters for Airsho period.
Second, the relative paucity of "combat airplanes" at this year's show. Well, let me see...the Bearcat broke a month before the show, the P-39 broke the day it was to come to the show, three B-25s were down for engine related issues, the P-63 has engine/FAA issues, Gunfighter went to represent the CAF at the Gathering, Texas Raiders is under restoration, several fighters that were going to come to Midland ended up having to go the the Gathering (and by the way, how much gas did all those owners receive?)....I could go on. We did "manage" to get three Skyraiders, two Hueys and a Cobra, L-39, two A-26, two B-25, two TBM, Hellcat, Zero, Helldiver, Dauntless, Corsair, Wildcat/Martlet, B-17, B-24, AC-47, a slew of trainers, transports, L-birds and such...It wasn't the biggest turn-out ever, but it wasn't bad. Next year's show will be the 20 & 21 of September...no changing the date. Maybe we can improve the turn-out.
I have no idea what happened with Bill Greenwood and my ramp crew. He did not talk to me.
I have many distinct "cohorts" (to use some high-dollar Latin) that I have to consider when doing the show. First, the CAF membership expects Airsho to make money. We did. Second, the public expects a "new" show every year, or they won't come. We incorporated some new things and the public came. Third, all involved expect a safe, well-organized show. It was. More than 500 volunteers worked their asses off to make it that way. Was it perfect? No, but it was not for lack of effort.
If you would like to volunteer for next year's show, I'll be glad to find a place for you. I apologize in advance if these comments seem a bit "testy."
Bill Coombes
aka Old Shep
First, ALL CAF AIRPLANES ARE EXPECTED TO COME TO THE HOMECOMING AIRSHO. That is part of the aircraft assignment letter each unit SIGNS (legally binding document) when they get an airplane. NOWHERE in that letter does it say that the Airsho will reimburse ANY fuel. The FACT is that we've been able to give fuel to airplanes coming to the show ever since I've been Airsho chairman. However, the amount of money I've had to spend on fuel has remained fixed: the cost of fuel has gone up dramatically. I've been able to pay MORE than half fuel to CAF members (as we were able to do last year) if there is money to do so after the bills are paid. I sympathize with everyone in the CAF who squawks about the money to come to Midland, but it should be considered as a cost incurred when a unit agrees to take on an airplane. And, if your unit contacts me or the Vice President of Operations well in advance and tells us you can't come to Airsho because of distance, money, time, mechanical issues, we usually can work something out. But, the fact remains, the airplanes are all supposed to come to Headquarters for Airsho period.
Second, the relative paucity of "combat airplanes" at this year's show. Well, let me see...the Bearcat broke a month before the show, the P-39 broke the day it was to come to the show, three B-25s were down for engine related issues, the P-63 has engine/FAA issues, Gunfighter went to represent the CAF at the Gathering, Texas Raiders is under restoration, several fighters that were going to come to Midland ended up having to go the the Gathering (and by the way, how much gas did all those owners receive?)....I could go on. We did "manage" to get three Skyraiders, two Hueys and a Cobra, L-39, two A-26, two B-25, two TBM, Hellcat, Zero, Helldiver, Dauntless, Corsair, Wildcat/Martlet, B-17, B-24, AC-47, a slew of trainers, transports, L-birds and such...It wasn't the biggest turn-out ever, but it wasn't bad. Next year's show will be the 20 & 21 of September...no changing the date. Maybe we can improve the turn-out.
I have no idea what happened with Bill Greenwood and my ramp crew. He did not talk to me.
I have many distinct "cohorts" (to use some high-dollar Latin) that I have to consider when doing the show. First, the CAF membership expects Airsho to make money. We did. Second, the public expects a "new" show every year, or they won't come. We incorporated some new things and the public came. Third, all involved expect a safe, well-organized show. It was. More than 500 volunteers worked their asses off to make it that way. Was it perfect? No, but it was not for lack of effort.
If you would like to volunteer for next year's show, I'll be glad to find a place for you. I apologize in advance if these comments seem a bit "testy."
Bill Coombes
aka Old Shep
Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:25 pm
retroaviation wrote:phil65 wrote:Gary for President, He needs too wear another hat
Phil
NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Gary
Hey, just think, you'll get a day off now and then
Lynn
Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:45 pm
Old Shep, et all,
Whatever the issues, if it weren't for the flight training I'm currently taking, I would've liked it if I could have made it out there again this year. Last year's show was a blast. the people were friendly... despite my not being CAF the guys on the ramp treated me great - helped fix a cowling fastener that apparently came off on the trip up, and
never charged my card for the gas I was going to buy! Now admittedly, I don't use much fuel, but I was really grateful for the way I was treated. It was fun meeting Gary Austin with the B-29 (yeah, I had to go see for myself), and just being around the pilot's hanger was awesome! I also was given top of the line help from the Airboss, who helped me get out during the show to get back to San Antonio just at dusk (I almost had to divert). Overall, my experience there was VERY positive. Oh, and the Dawn Patrol was waaay too much fun.
The only negative thing I can think of was the reaction from some former CAF members from San Antonio who still have old grudges and weren't extremely keen on the whole CAF business, and I heard some similar things and other rumblings being talked about at a table where I ate. Personally, I don't know what happened, and I almost don't care at this point. The organization is about preserving the history and the aircraft, and so long as they keep that as their goal, and do what they can to make it happen efficiently, I'm ok with that. I think we need to let bygones be bygones, learn from mistakes and be willing to admit them if need be, and show a little compassion, forgiveness, and understanding for the things that may affect other peoples decisions that we may think to be crazy.
Hope things settle down and the CAF is able to proceed as well as possible. Oh, and safe flying for everyone - CAF or not CAF (I'm even including our Yankee friends)!
I will always have fond memories of my first airshows and the good guys in the Confederate Air Force down at Stinson Airfield (where I'm now training for my CPL) who were kind to a small boy who loved airplanes. I try to remember that whenever I fly the L-2.
Ryan
Whatever the issues, if it weren't for the flight training I'm currently taking, I would've liked it if I could have made it out there again this year. Last year's show was a blast. the people were friendly... despite my not being CAF the guys on the ramp treated me great - helped fix a cowling fastener that apparently came off on the trip up, and
never charged my card for the gas I was going to buy! Now admittedly, I don't use much fuel, but I was really grateful for the way I was treated. It was fun meeting Gary Austin with the B-29 (yeah, I had to go see for myself), and just being around the pilot's hanger was awesome! I also was given top of the line help from the Airboss, who helped me get out during the show to get back to San Antonio just at dusk (I almost had to divert). Overall, my experience there was VERY positive. Oh, and the Dawn Patrol was waaay too much fun.
The only negative thing I can think of was the reaction from some former CAF members from San Antonio who still have old grudges and weren't extremely keen on the whole CAF business, and I heard some similar things and other rumblings being talked about at a table where I ate. Personally, I don't know what happened, and I almost don't care at this point. The organization is about preserving the history and the aircraft, and so long as they keep that as their goal, and do what they can to make it happen efficiently, I'm ok with that. I think we need to let bygones be bygones, learn from mistakes and be willing to admit them if need be, and show a little compassion, forgiveness, and understanding for the things that may affect other peoples decisions that we may think to be crazy.
Hope things settle down and the CAF is able to proceed as well as possible. Oh, and safe flying for everyone - CAF or not CAF (I'm even including our Yankee friends
)!
I will always have fond memories of my first airshows and the good guys in the Confederate Air Force down at Stinson Airfield (where I'm now training for my CPL) who were kind to a small boy who loved airplanes. I try to remember that whenever I fly the L-2.
Ryan
Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:50 pm
Mr. Coombes,
I can't tell you enough how much we appreciate all your efforts as Airsho Chairman. I thought we had a good turnout (I have NEVER seen three Skyraiders at once!) and, of course, I had a blast. You've done a great job and keep it up! Just save room for one L-5 next year, and I'll also be doing a low-level akro routine in the cub. I know you can fit me in somewhere in the schedule
I can't tell you enough how much we appreciate all your efforts as Airsho Chairman. I thought we had a good turnout (I have NEVER seen three Skyraiders at once!) and, of course, I had a blast. You've done a great job and keep it up! Just save room for one L-5 next year, and I'll also be doing a low-level akro routine in the cub. I know you can fit me in somewhere in the schedule
Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:11 pm
Bill Coombes wrote:
I for one would just like to say that the experience that I have had attending Airsho the last couple of years has been very positive. As a sponsor of one of the CAF Fighters and an warbird owner in general I want the CAF to thrive. They have gone out of their way to put on as good of an airshow as possible and I think all and all they do a great job. The thing I like the most about it is that it is one of the few pure warbird/military aircraft shows. For the most part, you don't have to endure any of the Extra 300/Pitts/Edge whatever BS.
As for honoring "the wars we won", I don't do it to honor any "war", but instead the brave, patriotic men and women who sacraficed and fought them. So hats off to the hundreds of volunteers who work all year to make these two days possible.
BTW, to all the wings that are bitching about the cost of gas to fly to Midland, buck up, or you could always save gas by assigning the aircraft to HQ, then you won't have so far to fly. Like any large organization, some wings run like a business, and other complain about how unfair it all is.
Fool that I am I shall try to shed some light and make some corrections about the CAF Airsho.
First, ALL CAF AIRPLANES ARE EXPECTED TO COME TO THE HOMECOMING AIRSHO. That is part of the aircraft assignment letter each unit SIGNS (legally binding document) when they get an airplane. NOWHERE in that letter does it say that the Airsho will reimburse ANY fuel. The FACT is that we've been able to give fuel to airplanes coming to the show ever since I've been Airsho chairman. However, the amount of money I've had to spend on fuel has remained fixed: the cost of fuel has gone up dramatically. I've been able to pay MORE than half fuel to CAF members (as we were able to do last year) if there is money to do so after the bills are paid. I sympathize with everyone in the CAF who squawks about the money to come to Midland, but it should be considered as a cost incurred when a unit agrees to take on an airplane. And, if your unit contacts me or the Vice President of Operations well in advance and tells us you can't come to Airsho because of distance, money, time, mechanical issues, we usually can work something out. But, the fact remains, the airplanes are all supposed to come to Headquarters for Airsho period.
Second, the relative paucity of "combat airplanes" at this year's show. Well, let me see...the Bearcat broke a month before the show, the P-39 broke the day it was to come to the show, three B-25s were down for engine related issues, the P-63 has engine/FAA issues, Gunfighter went to represent the CAF at the Gathering, Texas Raiders is under restoration, several fighters that were going to come to Midland ended up having to go the the Gathering (and by the way, how much gas did all those owners receive?)....I could go on. We did "manage" to get three Skyraiders, two Hueys and a Cobra, L-39, two A-26, two B-25, two TBM, Hellcat, Zero, Helldiver, Dauntless, Corsair, Wildcat/Martlet, B-17, B-24, AC-47, a slew of trainers, transports, L-birds and such...It wasn't the biggest turn-out ever, but it wasn't bad. Next year's show will be the 20 & 21 of September...no changing the date. Maybe we can improve the turn-out.
I have no idea what happened with Bill Greenwood and my ramp crew. He did not talk to me.
I have many distinct "cohorts" (to use some high-dollar Latin) that I have to consider when doing the show. First, the CAF membership expects Airsho to make money. We did. Second, the public expects a "new" show every year, or they won't come. We incorporated some new things and the public came. Third, all involved expect a safe, well-organized show. It was. More than 500 volunteers worked their asses off to make it that way. Was it perfect? No, but it was not for lack of effort.
If you would like to volunteer for next year's show, I'll be glad to find a place for you. I apologize in advance if these comments seem a bit "testy."
Bill Coombes
aka Old Shep
I for one would just like to say that the experience that I have had attending Airsho the last couple of years has been very positive. As a sponsor of one of the CAF Fighters and an warbird owner in general I want the CAF to thrive. They have gone out of their way to put on as good of an airshow as possible and I think all and all they do a great job. The thing I like the most about it is that it is one of the few pure warbird/military aircraft shows. For the most part, you don't have to endure any of the Extra 300/Pitts/Edge whatever BS.
As for honoring "the wars we won", I don't do it to honor any "war", but instead the brave, patriotic men and women who sacraficed and fought them. So hats off to the hundreds of volunteers who work all year to make these two days possible.
BTW, to all the wings that are bitching about the cost of gas to fly to Midland, buck up, or you could always save gas by assigning the aircraft to HQ, then you won't have so far to fly. Like any large organization, some wings run like a business, and other complain about how unfair it all is.
Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:59 pm
Old Shep wrote: Second, the public expects a "new" show every year, or they won't come. We incorporated some new things and the public came. Third, all involved expect a safe, well-organized show. It was. More than 500 volunteers worked their asses off to make it that way. Was it perfect? No, but it was not for lack of effort.
Bill, let me add this; I can’t think of a more thankless job than that of the staff that organizes an airshow. The last time I was involved with producing an airshow was almost 25 years ago (not CAF related). It’s easy to be a critic, but harder to be a *doer*.
My hat’s off the *doers* and volunteers that make these airshows happen.