Re: show
Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:16 am
Bill Greenwood wrote:I am kind of partial to wars we won, maybe just a personal quirk.
Oh, Bill....did you really just say that?
If so...can you please expound on which 'lost' wars you're referring to?
Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:23 am
Randy wrote to Bill Greenwood:
I'm just guessing, based on several previous conversations, but I bet it starts with a "V" and ends with a "Nam".
If so...can you please expound on which 'lost' wars you're referring to?
I'm just guessing, based on several previous conversations, but I bet it starts with a "V" and ends with a "Nam".
Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:11 am
I think some would just like to see all american made aircraft in the show and not waste fuel on the import types. Oh well, I guess they can serve as a sort of intermission to use the can and get a hot dog. 
Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:29 am
Bill can you clarify your comment? I think I'm brain dead with all the clear info I have to write at work all day to customers. Do you mean he was a jerk and was not pleased to see you and your airplane?
John
John
Wars
Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:56 am
Randy, first the word " lost " is yours, it does not appear in what I wrote. My post was a reply to another that lamented the small number of CAF fighters at the show. I pointed out allthough the modern stuff is not my taste either, but there were lots of planes at Midland and a lot to see. As for the wars, I think most historians would call Korea a tie. And have you seen FLIGHT OF THE INTRUDER, if that is the correct title? It's about a A-6 crew who, against orders, decides to bomb Hanoi. When berated about it, "Did you think you were going to win the war all by yourself?" He anwers with one of the movies great lines, " No sir, I think we are going to lose this one!" Randy I don't want to shake any fond memories of the great days of the 60s and 70s behind the leadership of such fine Americans and brave vets as LBJ and Richard the Lying Hearted, but we did not win the Vietnam War. We did win the Grenada war and as Eric pointed out to me it was a war with real bullets and KIA, even if not large. You guys won the military part of the first Gulf War, there' s doubt if we really won since we went back for Sadamm. And as for the current war, if we have won in Iraq, why are Americans still over there? Finally we don't seem to be winning the other big war, the one on drugs.
Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:32 am
USA helped win WW1, helped win WW2, helped to draw the Korean war, LOST vietnam and won Grenada, GW1 and GW2 - GW2 is a current debate its a technical illegal non UN approved invasion - not a war. Afghanistan is the same.
Much as i hate to say it myself, it Vietnam wasnt won by either military or the US politicians.
If a win means today you keep oil at xx price and a country democratic and not evil controlled, Vietnam failed as it was overrun by the NVA in 1975. The US pulled out in 1973 effectively so that is when it was lost effectively.
So in ending that issue the US could of poured alot more into Vietnam and won but it didnt due to tactics and government interference with the war.
Ive known a few Vietnam war vets and they are bitter at their loss but like to least think they tried their own small bit to help at the time they were there .. like to be something of some use to someone.
Much as i hate to say it myself, it Vietnam wasnt won by either military or the US politicians.
If a win means today you keep oil at xx price and a country democratic and not evil controlled, Vietnam failed as it was overrun by the NVA in 1975. The US pulled out in 1973 effectively so that is when it was lost effectively.
So in ending that issue the US could of poured alot more into Vietnam and won but it didnt due to tactics and government interference with the war.
Ive known a few Vietnam war vets and they are bitter at their loss but like to least think they tried their own small bit to help at the time they were there .. like to be something of some use to someone.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:52 am
Bill/Shep,
I echo the thoughts about gratitude for your hard work. I didn't make Airsho this year, but was there in 2005 and had a great time. You do a terrific job with, it seems, inadequate funds.
Nevertheless you are slightly sidestepping the point I raised. You say that "it wasn't the biggest turn-out ever, but it wasn't bad." I raised a strictly factual question: Was it the LOWEST EVER turnout of combat types in Airsho history? I don't have the data, but I suspect maybe it was?
And to show that I don't mean to be judgmental about it, my next question -- and that's all it was, a question -- was whether the organization is concerned about this. Maybe the answer is No. You explain that planes broke and GML drew off some other planes. Okay, I accept that. Maybe there's no problem then.
Then again, a good year for a CAF Airsho these days is, what, 10 or 12 fighters and 15 bomber/attack types? This would seem to be one of those "ebb" periods, at a time when warbirds in the US and nearby in Texas are more numerous than ever. Again, maybe this is not a concern. Maybe the organization has decided to direct its focus ($$) away from Airsho and more toward the museum or other things. As an outsider but a long-time fan of the organization, I'm just curious about where it is headed in this regard (putative topic of this thread).
August
I echo the thoughts about gratitude for your hard work. I didn't make Airsho this year, but was there in 2005 and had a great time. You do a terrific job with, it seems, inadequate funds.
Nevertheless you are slightly sidestepping the point I raised. You say that "it wasn't the biggest turn-out ever, but it wasn't bad." I raised a strictly factual question: Was it the LOWEST EVER turnout of combat types in Airsho history? I don't have the data, but I suspect maybe it was?
And to show that I don't mean to be judgmental about it, my next question -- and that's all it was, a question -- was whether the organization is concerned about this. Maybe the answer is No. You explain that planes broke and GML drew off some other planes. Okay, I accept that. Maybe there's no problem then.
Then again, a good year for a CAF Airsho these days is, what, 10 or 12 fighters and 15 bomber/attack types? This would seem to be one of those "ebb" periods, at a time when warbirds in the US and nearby in Texas are more numerous than ever. Again, maybe this is not a concern. Maybe the organization has decided to direct its focus ($$) away from Airsho and more toward the museum or other things. As an outsider but a long-time fan of the organization, I'm just curious about where it is headed in this regard (putative topic of this thread).
August
Re: Wars
Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:15 am
Randy, first the word " lost " is yours, it does not appear in what I wrote. My post was a reply to another that lamented the small number of CAF fighters at the show. I pointed out allthough the modern stuff is not my taste either, but there were lots of planes at Midland and a lot to see. As for the wars, I think most historians would call Korea a tie. And have you seen FLIGHT OF THE INTRUDER, if that is the correct title? It's about a A-6 crew who, against orders, decides to bomb Hanoi. When berated about it, "Did you think you were going to win the war all by yourself?" He anwers with one of the movies great lines, " No sir, I think we are going to lose this one!" Randy I don't want to shake any fond memories of the great days of the 60s and 70s behind the leadership of such fine Americans and brave vets as LBJ and Richard the Lying Hearted, but we did not win the Vietnam War. We did win the Grenada war and as Eric pointed out to me it was a war with real bullets and KIA, even if not large. You guys won the military part of the first Gulf War, there' s doubt if we really won since we went back for Sadamm. And as for the current war, if we have won in Iraq, why are Americans still over there? Finally we don't seem to be winning the other big wars, the one on drugs and poverty. Like most Americans I don't agree with the Iraq War, but wish you guys over in that region get home safely.
Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:17 am
Ah, the “counter-culture“. NEO HIPPIES or whatever they want to call themselves they thought they were unique. Wanted peace, love, and harmony and made The U.S. pulll out of Vietnam to save their own skins. Then the killing started. Like what's going to happen in Iraq
All of Cambodia's cities were then forcibly evacuated. At Phnom Penh, two million inhabitants were evacuated on foot into the countryside at gunpoint. As many as 20,000 died along the way.
Millions of Cambodians accustomed to city life were now forced into slave labor in Pol Pot's "killing fields" where they soon began dying from overwork, malnutrition and disease, on a diet of one tin of rice (180 grams) per person every two days.
Workdays in the fields began around 4 a.m. and lasted until 10 p.m., with only two rest periods allowed during the 18 hour day, all under the armed supervision of young Khmer Rouge soldiers eager to kill anyone for the slightest infraction. Starving people were forbidden to eat the fruits and rice they were harvesting. After the rice crop was harvested, Khmer Rouge trucks would arrive and confiscate the entire crop.
Ten to fifteen families lived together with a chairman at the head of each group. The armed supervisors made all work decisions with no participation from the workers who were told, "Whether you live or die is not of great significance." Every tenth day was a day of rest. There were also three days off during the Khmer New Year festival.
Throughout Cambodia, deadly purges were conducted to eliminate remnants of the "old society" - the educated, the wealthy, Buddhist monks, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and former government officials. Ex-soldiers were killed along with their wives and children. Anyone suspected of disloyalty to Pol Pot, including eventually many Khmer Rouge leaders, was shot or bludgeoned with an ax. "What is rotten must be removed," a Khmer Rouge slogan proclaimed.
In the villages, unsupervised gatherings of more than two persons were forbidden. Young people were taken from their parents and placed in communals. They were later married in collective ceremonies involving hundreds of often-unwilling couples.
Up to 20,000 persons were tortured into giving false confessions at Tuol Sleng, a school in Phnom Penh, which had been converted into a jail. Elsewhere, suspects were often shot on the spot before any questioning.
Ethnic groups were attacked including the three largest minorities; the Vietnamese, Chinese, and Cham Muslims, along with twenty other smaller groups. Fifty percent of the estimated 425,000 Chinese living in Cambodia in 1975 perished. Khmer Rouge also forced Muslims to eat pork and shot those who refused.
On December 25, 1978, Vietnam launched a full-scale invasion of Cambodia seeking to end Khmer Rouge border attacks. On January 7, 1979, Phnom Penh fell and Pol Pot was deposed. The Vietnamese then installed a puppet government consisting of Khmer Rouge defectors.
All of Cambodia's cities were then forcibly evacuated. At Phnom Penh, two million inhabitants were evacuated on foot into the countryside at gunpoint. As many as 20,000 died along the way.
Millions of Cambodians accustomed to city life were now forced into slave labor in Pol Pot's "killing fields" where they soon began dying from overwork, malnutrition and disease, on a diet of one tin of rice (180 grams) per person every two days.
Workdays in the fields began around 4 a.m. and lasted until 10 p.m., with only two rest periods allowed during the 18 hour day, all under the armed supervision of young Khmer Rouge soldiers eager to kill anyone for the slightest infraction. Starving people were forbidden to eat the fruits and rice they were harvesting. After the rice crop was harvested, Khmer Rouge trucks would arrive and confiscate the entire crop.
Ten to fifteen families lived together with a chairman at the head of each group. The armed supervisors made all work decisions with no participation from the workers who were told, "Whether you live or die is not of great significance." Every tenth day was a day of rest. There were also three days off during the Khmer New Year festival.
Throughout Cambodia, deadly purges were conducted to eliminate remnants of the "old society" - the educated, the wealthy, Buddhist monks, police, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and former government officials. Ex-soldiers were killed along with their wives and children. Anyone suspected of disloyalty to Pol Pot, including eventually many Khmer Rouge leaders, was shot or bludgeoned with an ax. "What is rotten must be removed," a Khmer Rouge slogan proclaimed.
In the villages, unsupervised gatherings of more than two persons were forbidden. Young people were taken from their parents and placed in communals. They were later married in collective ceremonies involving hundreds of often-unwilling couples.
Up to 20,000 persons were tortured into giving false confessions at Tuol Sleng, a school in Phnom Penh, which had been converted into a jail. Elsewhere, suspects were often shot on the spot before any questioning.
Ethnic groups were attacked including the three largest minorities; the Vietnamese, Chinese, and Cham Muslims, along with twenty other smaller groups. Fifty percent of the estimated 425,000 Chinese living in Cambodia in 1975 perished. Khmer Rouge also forced Muslims to eat pork and shot those who refused.
On December 25, 1978, Vietnam launched a full-scale invasion of Cambodia seeking to end Khmer Rouge border attacks. On January 7, 1979, Phnom Penh fell and Pol Pot was deposed. The Vietnamese then installed a puppet government consisting of Khmer Rouge defectors.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:18 am
Goodness
Last edited by sam on Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:32 am
August:
Time for a calmer response...You raised several valid points. I took a moment and listed all the CAF fighters: if all were flying we could only have 11. Attack planes would be 6 Navy types, 9 Army Air Corps, with 4 heavy bombers....total of 30. The remainder of the CAF fleet is transports, trainers, L-birds, etc. So, of CAF "combat" airplanes we had at the show we had 15. This is not as good as I would like, and every year we work on making sure folks with privately owned a/c, like Rick Sharpe and Eric Downing this year, get invites to help with specific parts of our show. We are always grateful for their help!
Now, the problem I have (recall the fixed amount of $$ I have for fuel) is that I have to plan on having ALL CAF airplanes appear since that is what they are supposed to do....thus the fuel budget gets used up (at least in the planning phase) really quickly. I can't issue blanket invites and bet that some CAF airplanes will be broken, I can't fail to generate a profit for the show (as that's what helps run HQ and the Museum), I've got to have "new" stuff for John Q Public....you see the problem.
We are trying hard to address the situation, since there are many combat airplanes in Texas, but, bottom line, it's going to take increasing the Airsho budget before we see many more of the combat types appear at the show. We try to be as hospitable as possible to all the pilots so that they'll want to come back, and we try to give as much gas as possible....One of the enduring mysteries to me is that so many guys will fly across the country to go to Oshkosh, where they get NO GAS, and basically are treated as step-children on most days, yet they don't come to the CAF show. Steven Brown, our new President, and I will be sitting down to discuss all of this prior to the new year and maybe I'll have some new answers.
Thanks for the thoughtful questions and thanks to all the rest of you for your kind words.
Old Shep
Time for a calmer response...You raised several valid points. I took a moment and listed all the CAF fighters: if all were flying we could only have 11. Attack planes would be 6 Navy types, 9 Army Air Corps, with 4 heavy bombers....total of 30. The remainder of the CAF fleet is transports, trainers, L-birds, etc. So, of CAF "combat" airplanes we had at the show we had 15. This is not as good as I would like, and every year we work on making sure folks with privately owned a/c, like Rick Sharpe and Eric Downing this year, get invites to help with specific parts of our show. We are always grateful for their help!
Now, the problem I have (recall the fixed amount of $$ I have for fuel) is that I have to plan on having ALL CAF airplanes appear since that is what they are supposed to do....thus the fuel budget gets used up (at least in the planning phase) really quickly. I can't issue blanket invites and bet that some CAF airplanes will be broken, I can't fail to generate a profit for the show (as that's what helps run HQ and the Museum), I've got to have "new" stuff for John Q Public....you see the problem.
We are trying hard to address the situation, since there are many combat airplanes in Texas, but, bottom line, it's going to take increasing the Airsho budget before we see many more of the combat types appear at the show. We try to be as hospitable as possible to all the pilots so that they'll want to come back, and we try to give as much gas as possible....One of the enduring mysteries to me is that so many guys will fly across the country to go to Oshkosh, where they get NO GAS, and basically are treated as step-children on most days, yet they don't come to the CAF show. Steven Brown, our new President, and I will be sitting down to discuss all of this prior to the new year and maybe I'll have some new answers.
Thanks for the thoughtful questions and thanks to all the rest of you for your kind words.
Old Shep
Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:29 am
Shep, I know we weren't able to help this year, but in the past The Cavanaugh Flight Museum has brought 4 or so planes including fighters, just to support the CAF. We took a couple to the DFW wing fly-in a couple of weeks ago. I think the date and cost of fuel had as much to do with the private owners not coming as did the Gathering.
Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:45 am
I don’t want this to be interpreted as a slur against Midland/Odessa but I can’t help but wonder if the event was moved to a different location near a major population base like Dallas or Phoenix or Denver or Albuquerque or the Los Angeles basin it wouldn’t have a much larger turn out. Maybe rotate to different cities? If they held it the same time of year at lets say the old Norton AFB in San Bernardino I bet they draw over 200,000 people.
Other cities
Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:15 am
Dan's suggestion of more CAF shows near other large cities may have some merit. Of course costs for housing go up and airspace may be restricted. Shep, as for going to Oshkosh, first we get fuel for the show flying and it is a generous amount just for that time. Most of us have to pay our own room and car and that considerable expense has cut down on attendance. But in the end we go because we love airplanes and the people around them. Whether we get $500 of fuel or none, it is only a dent is the cost of operating a fighter or a bomber, even a T-34 costs for annuals and insurance. The strenghts of Midland, ie lot's of flying in the show, able to do acro, rare types like B-24s flying, are sort of the opposite of Osh. There they have green grass, not sand and burrs, most every kind of aviation( believe it or not some people are interested n the others too), lots of interesting people, shopping, and forums, and by the way Texas Bar B Que beats what passees for food up there all to heck.
Re: Wars
Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:00 pm
Why are we still in Japan and Europe 62 years after WW2? Sorry for the off topic post, but I just couldn't let this go.Bill Greenwood wrote: And as for the current war, if we have won in Iraq, why are Americans still over there?
Hopefully the change is leadership of the CAF will lead to some new ideas that may help to reinvigorate the organization. In any case, I'm not convinced there is really a problem. After hanging around Planes of Fame for 25 years I still see lots of younger folks volunteering every weekend. Probably more than there ever have been, although I haven't taken a poll. The Chino kids of yesterday are the leaders of today at POF. In my case, I volunteered a lot when I was in college and early in my business carreer as I had more time. With a family (and my T-6 project in mid-swing) I mostly volunteer at the airshows and help out with fundraising when an opportunity presents itself. I am also in a position to donate money to the museum where I wasn't when I was younger.
Maybe this is a SoCal phenomenon? How are things in Camarillo by comparison?