Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:42 am
Gotcha. So "Title" in this case refers to a folder of applicable information that establishes true claim of ownership without any liens. Same purposes, but not a single piece of paper.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:54 am
Young Shep wrote:Gotcha. So "Title" in this case refers to a folder of applicable information that establishes true claim of ownership without any liens. Same purposes, but not a single piece of paper.
That is my understanding, but a lein can exist on an aircraft for years until the owner decides to sell the aircraft, and a title search brings it up.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:08 am
mustanglover wrote:Young Shep wrote:Gotcha. So "Title" in this case refers to a folder of applicable information that establishes true claim of ownership without any liens. Same purposes, but not a single piece of paper.
That is my understanding, but a lein can exist on an aircraft for years until the owner decides to sell the aircraft, and a title search brings it up.
So, when the CAF says they have "Title" (which is totally appropriate lingo) they must mean that the paperwork on the aircraft establishes the CAF has the true owner of the aircraft. Just has having clear title to car/boat establishes ownership.
Just trying to clarify since the use of the word "Title" has been questioned.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:47 am
Here is the rub.
You can also be a "guardian" of the aircraft and get a FAA Certificate of Registration.
If the CAF is truely the "owner" of the aircraft, they better hope that they have one of the following: a bill of sale, contract stating transfer of ownership or some other type of conveyance showing they are the "owner" of the aircraft.
Sec. 47.5
Applicants.
(a) A person who wishes to register an aircraft in the United States must submit an Application for Aircraft Registration under this part.
(b) An aircraft may be registered only by and in the legal name of its owner.
(c) Section 501(f) of the Act (49 U.S.C. 1401(f)), provides that registration is not evidence of ownership of aircraft in any proceeding in which ownership by a particular person is in issue. The FAA does not issue any certificate of ownership or endorse any information with respect to ownership on a Certificate of Aircraft Registration. The FAA issues a Certificate of Aircraft Registration to the person who appears to be the owner on the basis of the evidence of ownership submitted pursuant to Sec. 47.11 with the Application for Aircraft Registration, or recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry.
(d) In this part, "owner" includes a buyer in possession, a bailee, or a lessee of an aircraft under a contract of conditional sale, and the assignee of that person.
[Amdt. 47-20, 44 FR 61939, Oct. 29, 1979]
Sec. 47.11
Evidence of ownership.
Except as provided in Secs. 47.33 and 47.35, each person that submits an Application for Aircraft Registration under this part must also submit the required evidence of ownership, recordable under Secs. 49.13 and 49.17 of this chapter, as follows:
(a) The buyer in possession, the bailee, or the lessee of an aircraft under a contract of conditional sale must submit the contract. The assignee under a contract of conditional sale must submit both the contract (unless it is already recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry), and his assignment from the original buyer, bailee, lessee, or prior assignee.
(b) The repossessor of an aircraft must submit--
(1) A certificate of repossession on FAA Form 8050-4, or its equivalent, signed by the applicant and stating that the aircraft was repossessed or otherwise seized under the security agreement involved and applicable local law;
(2) The security agreement (unless it is already recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry), or a copy thereof certified as true under Sec. 49.21 of this chapter; and
(3) When repossession was through foreclosure proceedings resulting in sale, a bill of sale signed by the sheriff, auctioneer, or other authorized person who conducted the sale, and stating that the sale was made under applicable local law.
(c) The buyer of an aircraft at a judicial sale, or at a sale to satisfy a lien or charge, must submit a bill of sale signed by the sheriff, auctioneer, or other authorized person who conducted the sale, and stating that the sale was made under applicable local law.
(d) The owner of an aircraft, the title to which has been in controversy and has been determined by a court, must submit a certified copy of the decision of the court.
(e) The executor or administrator of the estate of the deceased former owner of an aircraft must submit a certified copy of the letters testamentary or letters of administration appointing him executor or administrator. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to the applicant as executor or administrator.
(f) The buyer of an aircraft from the estate of a deceased former owner must submit both a bill of sale, signed for the estate by the executor or administrator, and a certified copy of the letters testimentary or letters of administration. When no executor or administrator has been or is to be appointed, the applicant must submit both a bill of sale, signed by the heir-at-law of the deceased former owner, and an affidavit of the heir-at-law stating that no application for appointment of an executor or administrator has been made, that so far as he can determine none will be made, and that he is the person entitled to, or having the right to dispose of, the aircraft under applicable local law.
(g) The guardian of another person's property that includes an aircraft must submit a certified copy of the order of the court appointing him guardian. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to the applicant as guardian.
(h) The trustee of property that includes an aircraft, as described in Sec. 47.7(c), must submit either a certified copy of the order of the court appointing the trustee, or a complete and true copy of the instrument creating the trust. If there is more than one trustee, each trustee must sign the application. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to a single applicant as trustee, or to several trustees jointly as co-trustees.
[Doc. No. 7190, 31 FR 4495, Mar. 17, 1966, as amended by Amdt. 47-20, 44 FR 61940, Oct. 29, 1979; Amdt. 47-23, 53 FR 1915, Jan. 25, 1988]
You can also be a "guardian" of the aircraft and get a FAA Certificate of Registration.
If the CAF is truely the "owner" of the aircraft, they better hope that they have one of the following: a bill of sale, contract stating transfer of ownership or some other type of conveyance showing they are the "owner" of the aircraft.
Sec. 47.5
Applicants.
(a) A person who wishes to register an aircraft in the United States must submit an Application for Aircraft Registration under this part.
(b) An aircraft may be registered only by and in the legal name of its owner.
(c) Section 501(f) of the Act (49 U.S.C. 1401(f)), provides that registration is not evidence of ownership of aircraft in any proceeding in which ownership by a particular person is in issue. The FAA does not issue any certificate of ownership or endorse any information with respect to ownership on a Certificate of Aircraft Registration. The FAA issues a Certificate of Aircraft Registration to the person who appears to be the owner on the basis of the evidence of ownership submitted pursuant to Sec. 47.11 with the Application for Aircraft Registration, or recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry.
(d) In this part, "owner" includes a buyer in possession, a bailee, or a lessee of an aircraft under a contract of conditional sale, and the assignee of that person.
[Amdt. 47-20, 44 FR 61939, Oct. 29, 1979]
Sec. 47.11
Evidence of ownership.
Except as provided in Secs. 47.33 and 47.35, each person that submits an Application for Aircraft Registration under this part must also submit the required evidence of ownership, recordable under Secs. 49.13 and 49.17 of this chapter, as follows:
(a) The buyer in possession, the bailee, or the lessee of an aircraft under a contract of conditional sale must submit the contract. The assignee under a contract of conditional sale must submit both the contract (unless it is already recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry), and his assignment from the original buyer, bailee, lessee, or prior assignee.
(b) The repossessor of an aircraft must submit--
(1) A certificate of repossession on FAA Form 8050-4, or its equivalent, signed by the applicant and stating that the aircraft was repossessed or otherwise seized under the security agreement involved and applicable local law;
(2) The security agreement (unless it is already recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry), or a copy thereof certified as true under Sec. 49.21 of this chapter; and
(3) When repossession was through foreclosure proceedings resulting in sale, a bill of sale signed by the sheriff, auctioneer, or other authorized person who conducted the sale, and stating that the sale was made under applicable local law.
(c) The buyer of an aircraft at a judicial sale, or at a sale to satisfy a lien or charge, must submit a bill of sale signed by the sheriff, auctioneer, or other authorized person who conducted the sale, and stating that the sale was made under applicable local law.
(d) The owner of an aircraft, the title to which has been in controversy and has been determined by a court, must submit a certified copy of the decision of the court.
(e) The executor or administrator of the estate of the deceased former owner of an aircraft must submit a certified copy of the letters testamentary or letters of administration appointing him executor or administrator. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to the applicant as executor or administrator.
(f) The buyer of an aircraft from the estate of a deceased former owner must submit both a bill of sale, signed for the estate by the executor or administrator, and a certified copy of the letters testimentary or letters of administration. When no executor or administrator has been or is to be appointed, the applicant must submit both a bill of sale, signed by the heir-at-law of the deceased former owner, and an affidavit of the heir-at-law stating that no application for appointment of an executor or administrator has been made, that so far as he can determine none will be made, and that he is the person entitled to, or having the right to dispose of, the aircraft under applicable local law.
(g) The guardian of another person's property that includes an aircraft must submit a certified copy of the order of the court appointing him guardian. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to the applicant as guardian.
(h) The trustee of property that includes an aircraft, as described in Sec. 47.7(c), must submit either a certified copy of the order of the court appointing the trustee, or a complete and true copy of the instrument creating the trust. If there is more than one trustee, each trustee must sign the application. The Certificate of Aircraft Registration is issued to a single applicant as trustee, or to several trustees jointly as co-trustees.
[Doc. No. 7190, 31 FR 4495, Mar. 17, 1966, as amended by Amdt. 47-20, 44 FR 61940, Oct. 29, 1979; Amdt. 47-23, 53 FR 1915, Jan. 25, 1988]
Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:07 pm
All they do is go through the FAA records same as anyone can. You can go to Oklahoma City and look up the records yourself or have them send you a CD. Used to be harder because they had to either make you copies of the microfiche slides or send paper copies, both of which were more expensive.Young Shep wrote:Are you sure about that? It seems there are lots of companies that specialize in Aircraft Title Searches.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:12 pm
mustanglover wrote: The FAA issues a Certificate of Aircraft Registration to the person who appears to be the owner on the basis of the evidence of ownership submitted pursuant to Sec. 47.11 with the Application for Aircraft Registration, or recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry.
Ok, so according to the paperwork submitted (with the assumption that the FAA doesn't budge unless the paperwork is in order), it appears to the FAA that the Commemorative Air Force is the owner of this P-82.
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... dfind.y=11
Did I get that right?
Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:23 pm
Dan K wrote:mustanglover wrote: The FAA issues a Certificate of Aircraft Registration to the person who appears to be the owner on the basis of the evidence of ownership submitted pursuant to Sec. 47.11 with the Application for Aircraft Registration, or recorded at the FAA Aircraft Registry.
Ok, so according to the paperwork submitted (with the assumption that the FAA doesn't budge unless the paperwork is in order), it appears to the FAA that the Commemorative Air Force is the owner of this P-82.
http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry ... dfind.y=11
Did I get that right?
You are correct, right up until the point that someone disputes the true ownership, and then the FAA backs away and says "we don't know".
That is where a bill of sale, contract, etc. comes in to play in a court of law.
????
Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:14 pm
This is why Lacey's B-17G has never been registered or much less sold.
This is the one that really needs to be reposessed and given to a organization that will properly restored, care for and display it.
This is the one that really needs to be reposessed and given to a organization that will properly restored, care for and display it.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:29 pm
Folks - as has been posted before - anyone with real knowledge of the details of the whys and whats regarding the CAF, USAFM and the P-82 can't discuss them here or anywhere else in public due to the ongoing legal actions. That has been stated on WIX before by current members of the CAF General Staff/Board of Directors and I respectully ask that you keep that in mind in these forum discussions.
I am concerned that some of these posts about details of the legal action might inadvertantly contain something that could muddy the waters and prevent the CAF from retaining and restoring the plane to flight again. I am not reacting to anything said so far or trying to censor anyone but just uncomfortable with the direction of this discussion. Frankly, that's all I can say on the subject but hope you will all act responsibly and let the process go forth, hopefully, to a happy ending for the plane and its supporters. Thank you and let's all fly safe.
Randy
I am concerned that some of these posts about details of the legal action might inadvertantly contain something that could muddy the waters and prevent the CAF from retaining and restoring the plane to flight again. I am not reacting to anything said so far or trying to censor anyone but just uncomfortable with the direction of this discussion. Frankly, that's all I can say on the subject but hope you will all act responsibly and let the process go forth, hopefully, to a happy ending for the plane and its supporters. Thank you and let's all fly safe.
Randy
Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:38 pm
This is why Lacey's B-17G has never been registered or much less sold.
This is the one that really needs to be reposessed and given to a organization that will properly restored, care for and display it
It really scares me when I hear this type of thing. When people think that becuase they don't agree with how something is being taken care of so they suggest wise ol Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to some else. To me it isn't much different than Uncle Sam saying the same thing about someones' house if they can't afford to get a new roof on it or paint it then Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to someone who can take care of it. Pretty scary train of thought if you ask me.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:42 pm
Lacey owns that B-17, the Gov't has no claim to it. If you think it should be cared for any better, go there and offer to help out.
One easy way to find out the status of the F-82 is order the file from the FAA. every piece of paper ever filed with the FAA on that plane will be there.
One easy way to find out the status of the F-82 is order the file from the FAA. every piece of paper ever filed with the FAA on that plane will be there.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:01 pm
Randy Wilson wrote:Folks - as has been posted before - anyone with real knowledge of the details of the whys and whats regarding the CAF, USAFM and the P-82 can't discuss them here or anywhere else in public due to the ongoing legal actions. That has been stated on WIX before by current members of the CAF General Staff/Board of Directors and I respectully ask that you keep that in mind in these forum discussions.
I am concerned that some of these posts about details of the legal action might inadvertantly contain something that could muddy the waters and prevent the CAF from retaining and restoring the plane to flight again. I am not reacting to anything said so far or trying to censor anyone but just uncomfortable with the direction of this discussion. Frankly, that's all I can say on the subject but hope you will all act responsibly and let the process go forth, hopefully, to a happy ending for the plane and its supporters. Thank you and let's all fly safe.
Randy
I agree with you and I hope you are not uncomortable with my posts.
I was only posting this information as someone asked what a "title" meant. Being in the airplane business for 40 plus years, including buying selling aircraft, I have learned a thing or two. My posts above are simply extracted from the FARs and this is what the courts will be looking to in the begining. Sadly, if it turns into a he said/she said argument in the court room and the proper supporting paperwork for a C of R is not there, things do not look rosey at all for us in the warbird movement.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:06 pm
rwdfresno wrote:This is why Lacey's B-17G has never been registered or much less sold.
This is the one that really needs to be reposessed and given to a organization that will properly restored, care for and display it
It really scares me when I hear this type of thing. When people think that becuase they don't agree with how something is being taken care of so they suggest wise ol Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to some else. To me it isn't much different than Uncle Sam saying the same thing about someones' house if they can't afford to get a new roof on it or paint it then Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to someone who can take care of it. Pretty scary train of thought if you ask me.
I think Jack was being sarcastic? If not, then I am sorry. The lacey B-17 is one great looking plane, and is going to be kept that way. I agree that if a historic aircraft is not being taken care of Then it should be given to a museum that would restore it an d preserve it. Now this is all based on the fact that it is a warbird. If it is a civilian airplane, then there is not much you can do. If I lend something to someone and they don't take care of it, I am going to want it back.
???
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:20 pm
It really scares me when I hear this type of thing. When people think that becuase they don't agree with how something is being taken care of so they suggest wise ol Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to some else. To me it isn't much different than Uncle Sam saying the same thing about someones' house if they can't afford to get a new roof on it or paint it then Uncle Sam should repo it and give it to someone who can take care of it. Pretty scary train of thought if you ask me.
Not a blanket statement Ryan but one to this specific a/c only. Only a matter of time before the remains fall apart and come crashing to the ground
That's something I know you wouldn't approve of! I knew Bob Sturges for a long time(awesome guy BTW-RIP). He had copies of the paperwork for the a/c which clearly wasn't a bill of sale. He recollection of events differs greatly from Art Lacey's and reek of the truth:shock:I believe AC reproduced some of the original paperwork a few years back along with a long account from Bob.
If you think it should be cared for any better, go there and offer to help out.
That would require someone of great wealth they wish to give away or great skills neither of which I have
The IRS rejection of the 501c3 application pretty much killed any chance of their success. The nose was removed over 11 years ago and was reconstructed but is mostly a displayed empty shell. The rest still rots alop it's perch off McLaughlin Blvd. That from my viewpoint is very sad.
Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:24 pm
Lacy's B-17 (Honestly I don't know anything about it), but it aparently BELONGS to Mr. Lacy.
Lets see, a B-17, complete and in need of restoration is worth $1 or $2 Million Dollars. Assume I own it. Its sitting outside uncared for (like the one at the gas station outside Portland or Seattle) and I just want to "GIVE IT AWAY". Sure, anyone here who would be so fortunate to have a B-17 (and not be a DOTKOM millionaire) would be an idiot.
I mean if you DONT HAVE ANYTHING, NEVER HAD ANYTHING, NEVER WORKED FOR ANYTHING, then its EASY to say you should simply "Give it away". Hey, go out and make your first Million (in assets) and then come back and tell us how easy it was.
The airplane belongs to Mr. Lacy, if it makes him happy to see it ROT, then so be it.
Mark H
Lets see, a B-17, complete and in need of restoration is worth $1 or $2 Million Dollars. Assume I own it. Its sitting outside uncared for (like the one at the gas station outside Portland or Seattle) and I just want to "GIVE IT AWAY". Sure, anyone here who would be so fortunate to have a B-17 (and not be a DOTKOM millionaire) would be an idiot.
I mean if you DONT HAVE ANYTHING, NEVER HAD ANYTHING, NEVER WORKED FOR ANYTHING, then its EASY to say you should simply "Give it away". Hey, go out and make your first Million (in assets) and then come back and tell us how easy it was.
The airplane belongs to Mr. Lacy, if it makes him happy to see it ROT, then so be it.
Mark H