Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:56 pm
DaveM2 wrote:At the risk of risking the rath of Cees, I also agree it should be left as is, and the restored turret, should be made to look a bit more 'tatty' to fit in. It is fascinating to see an aircraft as it was pulled out in time capsule form, and especially so when the wreck is more or less intact . I would like to see the same thing done with the Emil that was pulled out of a Russian lake and now for sale with Jim Pearce. Dismantle it , clean and coat it with anti- corrosion chemicals, reassemble and display. Much like the wise decision Pensacola are taking with the Buffalo, we need more historic aircraft left in time capsule form, rather than meddling with them to make them bright shiny and dare I say .... boring! Seeing something displayed that way makes you stop and think about the history of it, rather than just 'window shopping'
Dave
Haha Dave, don't worry.
Read my reply again. I feel that W1048 is a very worthy monument and a full restoration would destroy that. If she was still the only one in the world then I was a strong advocate to restore her but things changed over the past decades. I'm with Archie and the rest on this but some things such as a completely restored engine and nose turret look ridiculous. Just put her back as just after recovery with pespex and cowlings to at least make her look complete again and not a dumped airframe on gravel. I'm aware that the engine mounting could not cope with the strain due to corrosion but suitably propped up with cowlings would look much better.
Cees
Mon Dec 06, 2004 3:08 pm
Hi Airnutz.... it was me talking about the Dauntless construction problems. I agree, it would have been nice to have preserved these in some fashion, however, the aircraft is going to be a flyer. Also, the parts with bad construction techniques needed to be removed to recover useable parts from a sectioned up airframe. The skin with the blank rivets though is still in one piece, and won't be used in the flyer, so technically this will be preserved if that helps any.
Cheers,
Richard
Cheers,
Richard
Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:08 pm
Difficult one to answer! I had a long discussion with the leading light in the
project to rebuild her many years ago. The engineering challenges were
known and achievable. However the leadership decided that they wanted the path of least resistance i.e leave her as she is. Certainly the sledge she sits on is just a part of her recovery and nothing to do with her initial fate. She represents an unfullfilled restoration. I do wonder how many former Halifax crews appreciate the Hendon example and if they view the
Elvington hybrid as more thought envoking.
Whilst I fully understand people who want her left 'as is' -I also realise that whatever they do they cannot effectively pickle her as she is because of the extent of damage to her and the fact that aluminium corrodes unpainted. Certainly there will be parts of the airframe where corrosion is occuring and little can be done about it.
I believe that she should be restored - I feel that whilst she represents the Halifax - she is specific to that crew and mission. A great many did return from Ops and their story needs to be told as well.
A sympathetic restoration could return her effectively to a 'used' condition and ensure a long term future for her . She is corroding as we speak so it's not matter at present of safeguarding her long term future
but hoping she survives. That isn't enough for such a significant type.
project to rebuild her many years ago. The engineering challenges were
known and achievable. However the leadership decided that they wanted the path of least resistance i.e leave her as she is. Certainly the sledge she sits on is just a part of her recovery and nothing to do with her initial fate. She represents an unfullfilled restoration. I do wonder how many former Halifax crews appreciate the Hendon example and if they view the
Elvington hybrid as more thought envoking.
Whilst I fully understand people who want her left 'as is' -I also realise that whatever they do they cannot effectively pickle her as she is because of the extent of damage to her and the fact that aluminium corrodes unpainted. Certainly there will be parts of the airframe where corrosion is occuring and little can be done about it.
I believe that she should be restored - I feel that whilst she represents the Halifax - she is specific to that crew and mission. A great many did return from Ops and their story needs to be told as well.
A sympathetic restoration could return her effectively to a 'used' condition and ensure a long term future for her . She is corroding as we speak so it's not matter at present of safeguarding her long term future
but hoping she survives. That isn't enough for such a significant type.
Halifax W1048
Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:29 pm
As the originator of this latest incarnation of the restore the Halifax or not debate, I feel I must add my tenpen'worth......
You'll find a letter from me in a FlyPast of at least 20 years ago suggesting that S-Sugar was rebuilt and nothing in the intervening years has altered my mind about that view. In fact the appearance of the Elvington example has strengthened, rather than diminished, my feelings about that.
The original intention was clearly to restore her, hence the initial efforts at Wyton, and once started, my thoughts were and are that the job should have been finished.
Clearly there are contrary views, for reasons I well respect and appreciate. For me though, it's just that I find a complete airframe more evocative than a wreck.
You'll find a letter from me in a FlyPast of at least 20 years ago suggesting that S-Sugar was rebuilt and nothing in the intervening years has altered my mind about that view. In fact the appearance of the Elvington example has strengthened, rather than diminished, my feelings about that.
The original intention was clearly to restore her, hence the initial efforts at Wyton, and once started, my thoughts were and are that the job should have been finished.
Clearly there are contrary views, for reasons I well respect and appreciate. For me though, it's just that I find a complete airframe more evocative than a wreck.
Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:07 pm
Hi
As the originator of this thread I feel it rapidly wobbled back onto the Hendon Halifax a little too quickly but thats OK thats what forums are for.
I am just pleased that another Halifax will happen and a group are going to do it!
For my two Bobs worth - I think I am a well Known "Restore her" person when it comes to the Hendon one . The trouble is the "leave her as she is" mob will win by default because Hendon don't have either the resources or inclination to finish her and in any case YAM and the Canadians have done their job for them.
By the way is the one in the North Sea Merlin or Hercules engined ?
Regards
John P
As the originator of this thread I feel it rapidly wobbled back onto the Hendon Halifax a little too quickly but thats OK thats what forums are for.
I am just pleased that another Halifax will happen and a group are going to do it!
For my two Bobs worth - I think I am a well Known "Restore her" person when it comes to the Hendon one . The trouble is the "leave her as she is" mob will win by default because Hendon don't have either the resources or inclination to finish her and in any case YAM and the Canadians have done their job for them.
By the way is the one in the North Sea Merlin or Hercules engined ?
Regards
John P
Mon Dec 06, 2004 11:25 pm
Damien
If there are valid concerns that it is corroding, well that puts a different light on it, anyone know what preservation measures were taken at the time ?, I assume the powers that be followed the correct procedures back in the seventies ?
Dave
If there are valid concerns that it is corroding, well that puts a different light on it, anyone know what preservation measures were taken at the time ?, I assume the powers that be followed the correct procedures back in the seventies ?
Dave
Special care
Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:56 am
...And even if they did do their best in the 70's..then they may have to go
back and 'touch 'er up' with current techniques. If it ever came down to the need of disassembling her for preservation needs...then in that effort
of that aspect of care, may involve removing originality. At that point
I may be tempted to restore the aircraft to that of a flying example rather than risk a decaying heap of flotsam. Better a "live" example, than a pile of dust!
Thank-you RMAlnutt, for your thoughtful reply..I am glad to see that I am not the only one struggling with this issue, given the varied statements to
this thread on this re-ocurring subject.
For instance, Pekuri's BW-372 has drawn a lot of interest. Some say keep
'er as she is, others..make patterns and fly 'er. If 372 was absolutely THE
last one.. then I might vote OK..do it. But there are other Buffs still
possible for recovery as "pattern-birds". BW 388 in the Gulf of Finland is still a possibility. Col Rohr has hinted that he may know of 5 viable
possibilities. Ya never know what will show up in PPNG...so I say, in the meantime preserve BW 372 as the "operational and correct artifact", that
she is. You can NEVER rush the recording of history..it reveals it's secrets in time with patience, and in often cases, luck!
...just my "2-coppers" worth...
back and 'touch 'er up' with current techniques. If it ever came down to the need of disassembling her for preservation needs...then in that effort
of that aspect of care, may involve removing originality. At that point
I may be tempted to restore the aircraft to that of a flying example rather than risk a decaying heap of flotsam. Better a "live" example, than a pile of dust!
Thank-you RMAlnutt, for your thoughtful reply..I am glad to see that I am not the only one struggling with this issue, given the varied statements to
this thread on this re-ocurring subject.
For instance, Pekuri's BW-372 has drawn a lot of interest. Some say keep
'er as she is, others..make patterns and fly 'er. If 372 was absolutely THE
last one.. then I might vote OK..do it. But there are other Buffs still
possible for recovery as "pattern-birds". BW 388 in the Gulf of Finland is still a possibility. Col Rohr has hinted that he may know of 5 viable
possibilities. Ya never know what will show up in PPNG...so I say, in the meantime preserve BW 372 as the "operational and correct artifact", that
she is. You can NEVER rush the recording of history..it reveals it's secrets in time with patience, and in often cases, luck!
...just my "2-coppers" worth...
Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:58 am
The initial plan was to restore the Halifax to her original appearance. The forward fuselage section was sent to RAF Wyton for restoration, however, this was not a successful project and was abandoned. It became apparent that a great proportion of the aircraft was in a very fragile condition and that if full restoration was undertaken little of the original aircraft would remain. The front gun turret was refurbished as a separate project and one engine was restored. Other than this, it was decided that the Halifax should be left in the condition that she had been found and would be displayed at Hendon. Meanwhile, the Halifax was sprayed with PX-9, a lanolin based preservative. Unfortunately, prior to this application the airframe had already started to corrode, it was later discovered that the Halifax should have been treated with another product prior to the PX-9 which could have prevented further corrosion. The application of PX-9 had not coated the Halifax uniformly, and as a result some areas continued to corrode.
In the early 1970's, The Society of Friends of the Royal Air Force Museum was established to support the aims of the RAF Museum at Hendon. Each year the society makes a financial donation to the museum and is actively supportive by providing three teams of volunteers to work on the aircraft, vehicles and boats in the Hendon collection. In 1989 the society formed an aircraft team who would be responsible for restoration and conservation of the growing collection of aircraft in the museum. Initially this work would be carried out only on smaller items rather than entire aircraft. Later the team were asked to carry out corrosion inspections on some of the aircraft in the Battle of Britain Hall, and then they were tasked with looking after the aircraft in the Bomber Command Hall.
In order to attempt to halt any further corrosion on the Halifax it was sprayed with Waxoyl - a delicate process which took a year to complete. After a full inspection a report was written for the museum detailing the condition of the Halifax and what The Society of Friends team could do by way of preservation/restoration. The museum concluded that the external surfaces of the Halifax were, as far as possible, to remain as they were other than any work required to stabilize it. The interior of the Halifax could undergo some conservation work. Currently work is ongoing in the interior to halt any further corrosion. This is a long and laborious process due to space limitations, keeping stress on the structure to a minimum and working within health and safety parameters.
In the early 1970's, The Society of Friends of the Royal Air Force Museum was established to support the aims of the RAF Museum at Hendon. Each year the society makes a financial donation to the museum and is actively supportive by providing three teams of volunteers to work on the aircraft, vehicles and boats in the Hendon collection. In 1989 the society formed an aircraft team who would be responsible for restoration and conservation of the growing collection of aircraft in the museum. Initially this work would be carried out only on smaller items rather than entire aircraft. Later the team were asked to carry out corrosion inspections on some of the aircraft in the Battle of Britain Hall, and then they were tasked with looking after the aircraft in the Bomber Command Hall.
In order to attempt to halt any further corrosion on the Halifax it was sprayed with Waxoyl - a delicate process which took a year to complete. After a full inspection a report was written for the museum detailing the condition of the Halifax and what The Society of Friends team could do by way of preservation/restoration. The museum concluded that the external surfaces of the Halifax were, as far as possible, to remain as they were other than any work required to stabilize it. The interior of the Halifax could undergo some conservation work. Currently work is ongoing in the interior to halt any further corrosion. This is a long and laborious process due to space limitations, keeping stress on the structure to a minimum and working within health and safety parameters.
Waxoyl
Tue Dec 07, 2004 5:29 am
Amazing..we posted 2 minutes apart. Wow!!...Waxoyl..the same stuff I "squirt-up" into MG and Jag hidden-voids for preservation! A year
to apply it to the Halifax..they must have been heating the surrounding
surfaces to allow it to "wick" into the joints...or continually "dousing"
the stuff to get it to seep in.
Thanx Archie...
to apply it to the Halifax..they must have been heating the surrounding
surfaces to allow it to "wick" into the joints...or continually "dousing"
the stuff to get it to seep in.
Thanx Archie...
Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:11 am
John,
LW170 is hercules-powered. As one of the engines was torn of her mountings, the difficult problem YAM and Trenton have already experienced could rear its head again: where to find a replacement?
A merlin-engined Mk II or V would make matters much easier (talking about the engine situation only of course).
Cees
LW170 is hercules-powered. As one of the engines was torn of her mountings, the difficult problem YAM and Trenton have already experienced could rear its head again: where to find a replacement?
A merlin-engined Mk II or V would make matters much easier (talking about the engine situation only of course).
Cees
3 engined hali?
Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:08 am
Cees..
I didnt know she only had three engines?
I didnt know she only had three engines?
Wed Dec 08, 2004 11:20 am
Peter,
Well, it did have four when she took off but on the photograph that shows her floating in the sea, the starboard outer seems to be missing.
Cees
Well, it did have four when she took off but on the photograph that shows her floating in the sea, the starboard outer seems to be missing.
Cees
missing engine
Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:42 pm
Cees.
From the look of the pic, the stbd outer is there albeit almost completely underwater. You can make out one prop blade sitting up and also the top of the air intake?
From the look of the pic, the stbd outer is there albeit almost completely underwater. You can make out one prop blade sitting up and also the top of the air intake?
Thu Dec 09, 2004 11:02 am
Some you see, I don't? 
The photographs I have seen show that there is nothing forward of the starboard outer engine mounting. The engine intake starts on top of the upper cowling fairing.
Cees
The photographs I have seen show that there is nothing forward of the starboard outer engine mounting. The engine intake starts on top of the upper cowling fairing.
Cees