Warbird Information Exchange

Some more to think about
Yesterday I received a phone call from a recent widow due to a Bonanza accident. I had been wondering if the families of the 2 passengers were going to sue.
She was trying to find out who gave her husband his last instrument check. It was tough to hear her explaining that the insurance company was giving her trouble about producing his log book. He had kept it in the airplane and the wreckage was so severe that there was little hope of finding anything. After listening to her crying on the telephone and realizing the futility of finding this information I will make sure my wife is never in this position mostly by not taking passengers.

Then just today while at a stop light I thought the light turned green and I started to go. I had never done this before but I think that I mistook the flash from when I moved my head between the top of my sunglasses and the frame as the light changeing to green.

So this would of been an accident if someone had been crossing at the same time.

I think the only difference between my close auto accident and the Stearman guy is that we as pilots hold ourselves to higher standards pertainig to decision making. For the community of pilots and safety we need to, but at what point is an accident an accident and not a criminal act.

Somehow we need to take out the sensational nature of an airplane crash where one crash in 6 months leads the news for weeks while there are thousands of car and truck accidents that go totally unnoticed.

Two interesting things here. The constant "I don't want you to sue" and the "releases".

First, on releases. Pretty simple. You can release your right to sue (assuming you live) by SIMPLY NOT SUING ANYONE. MSTGDRIVER, if you lose both legs in an airplane accident, don't sue. Fine with me. BUT WHEN the company you work for says, that they don't need your services any longer because you can't do your job (mainly a desk job which you could do with no legs) Don't sue them either. You can be a door greeter at WalMart. Also I'm sure you can dig deep and buy that $100,000 hadicapped equipped van out of the Walmart paycheck. Yeah right, THINK AHEAD. (sorry MSTGDRIVER I'm not picking on you I just needed an example)

But even IF You live the release only covers reasonably forseeable things happening. Example. Reno Air Races, they have not had a plane in the crowd that I know of since they restarted them. When you walk through the gate I recall a sign that says you come here at your own risk. I had a front row seat for the L-39 crash, a split second before impact, that plane was headed for the pits\Grandstands. Fortunately it impacted near the runway. Now IF YOU twist an ankle on a curb, fall off the granstands or slip on the ice, chances are you can't sue RARA. HOWEVER if you get wacked by a crashing L-39 into the crowd you can sue.

The release you sign (anyone PM ME, I'll send a release from 1-800-BE-PETTY driving school that is awesome and covers dammm near anything) is NOTHING more than a starting point for the lawsuit. They virtually never hold up because there are so many ways around them..........

If you die, keep in mind you can only release "yourself". Your kids have rights, wife has rights. Your ESTATE doesn't come into being until you die, so you can't sign away your rights after death. The executor of your estate has the obligation to MAXIMIZE the value of your estate (usually he gets paid 2 to 5% or so) for your heirs (Uncle Jim or your mom and dad may want more $$$ to repay them for putting you through Harvard). Also if you think your insurance company simply pays out money on an "accident" and doesn't collect from the person who got you wacked, think again.

Next, I really wonder HOW STUPID SOME PEOPLE ARE; maybe UNCARING IS THE REAL WORD........ Tell the wife (er .. widow to be) DONT SUE? Why do that to your family? Whats the wife earn compared to you? What will happen to the family's standard of living when you can't earn or even take care of chores around the house...... The $300,000 house is gone and they are living in an apartment, driving an old car, kids aren't going to college now, etc. If want to subject your family to that, your spouse should be divorcing you NOW and getting her half, half of your half and a check every month from you until the kids are of age. You can live on nothing for a while. Tell them to sue (and use a decent lawyer too, not the one that shows up at the funeral or the one Uncle Bob used to do his $75 will). PROTECT YOUR FAMILY from other's stupidity.

Balls on powerlines. Honestly, they are RARE, believe it or not they are hard to see. If you ever start depending on seeing the balls, you will die in a helicopter crash. Better than the balls are the reflective spinners. They are little reflective things maybe 4"x6" or so that the wind makes them spin and they are really bright and you can see them. Also when the wind blows they don't put the stress on the lines like the balls do (makes the power company happy).

A few recent accidents that are related to really NOT THINKING for a second. A local coal company had their TwinStar deliver some people to a mine site. Chopper came in and flew over some power lines that the mine had set up on site. They flew right over it, can't imagine the pilot missed it. He dropped the passengers off, turned around and flew right into that line. Explosion, crash, 1 dead.

About 3 months ago, another coal company had a pilot who flew chopper back in Vietnam, so he'd been flying 40 years of choppers. Flew for them for probably 20 years, SUPERNICE guy, knew his stuff. Lands chopper, blades turning down, about stopped and walks under the blades and up a small slope that was just high enough to put his head in the rotor arc and he got hit in the head with a blade, one strike and he was dead before he hit the ground.

Mike George hit on the "sensational nature of airplane accidents". Yup, they are rare, but when you look at the FAA accident reports, there is at least one everyday. The sheer volume of car wrecks and the mostly minor injuries from them help keep OUR car insurance high. What was the old statistic 50,000 a year die in car wrecks. Comparing, that, 50,000 died in Vietnam, 3000+ in the Middle East (It will be 50,000 before they get out of there too).............. How many die in plane crashes, maybe 500 to 750 a year. Its still safe if you are careful........

Its that one second of inattention that can turn a perfect day into a disaster. You need to keep your mind on everything all the time and never let your guard down.

Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

Mark,

I think the distinction to make here is suing for damages and just suing.

Here's where I have a problem with non-tort reformed law system. There is no limit nor is there any requirement for evidence that someone is responsible prior to a suit being filed. This has killed a lot of economic growth in the last 20 years because companies are not willing to fight the hordes of morally and factually vacant lawsuits that are brought against them because there is not accountability to those who choose to bring the lawsuits. I don't know if you missed it, but the only manufacturer of float-type carbs for piston aircraft recently suspended production. Why? They couldn't get any liability insurance for their product because they'd been sued so many times that the insurance company refused to continue coverage. How many times were they found liable? ZERO. Why were they sued? Simply because their part was on the airplane that crashed. Nothing more. The current system is devoid of any requirement to prove liability prior to being able to bring a lawsuit (i.e. facts or findings that the part was at fault). This must change if any specialty industry, especially aviation is to survive.

While you sit there and talk about one side's families suing to get all that compensation, you ignore the other end of the equation. What about the majority of accidents where the pilot dies too? How is it fair, equitible, or most especially moral for one to sue the estate of the guy who died too. They're in the same situation as the others - they've lost a loved one, most likely the "bread winner" of the household, too. How are they supposed to survive? How is it right for one victim's family to sue another's for a MISTAKE. 90% of accidents are due to MISTAKES, not negligence. I believe in the Stearman pilot's case, it was again a MISTAKE, not negligence. Negligence implies he knew there were powerlines there or that he meant to cause the crash. Not that he made a mistake. He was charged with manslaughter however, so he plead down to negligence to avoid the much harsher charge that was totally unwarranted as well.

When you take an advesarial judicial system and put into it morally vacant adversaries, you get where we are today - no concept of accountability or having real proof of liability prior to filing a suit or hearing one. Persons and companies shouldn't have to defend every lawsuit. The judicial system is supposed to weed out those that have no basis in fact, yet it doesn't. As such, it needs to be fixed. Until it is, the only way to not get sued is to simply not do anything (at all). And that's a sad state of affairs that will ruin our economy if left unchecked.

A few years back here there was a accident on the river involving a Supercub on floats that hit a canoe. He pilot in a open straight stretch of the river with no obstructions. It is a place used by many floatplanes because of this. The pilot X was a excellent pilot Nat. Guard UH-60 driver with years of experience. His way of flying was to be safe. It CAVU and very bright with a calm river. There was some glare off the water and he never saw the canoe in the middle of the river. But, they saw him. With the plane approaching head on and fast (70mph or so) instead rolling the canoe and going in the river they stood up and waved their arms and yelled. The front bar connecting the floats hit them both in the head and killed them. This was a accident that should have been an incident. The 2 stupid people in the canoe had a nice funeral. Pilot X lost everything and I mean everything! Every detail of his life was front pages for weeks even when he bought his house and how much for (reporters love to visit the county clerks office!)! He lost his Guard job and had to leave the service. He got sued for millions settled for everything he owned and more. He got death threats, his house was vanadalized, his neighbors were harrassed, his family was harrassed and threatened and he lost his pilots license for quite a while. It was so bad he moved to Canada to work with his uncle and start over. Now he's finally back in the US and working with his family to develope a large aircraft museum.
No magic ending he just a sad story.

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Don't touch my junk!!

The Stearman pilot got six months in the grey bar hotel...
From Ann:

CAPFLYER:

A few brief respsonses I should have made sooner.

I heard the story about the carb manufacturer. I also understood that someone else took over that business. A few things that they needed to do if they couldn't afford insurance. First, get a REAL lawyer (a true junkyard dog) to defend all the lawsuits. Plaintiff's lawyers find its not fun to sue someone who puts a real fight. Sue WalMart for a slip and fall and see what their defense looks like.

Next structure the business so they lose a suit, they can continue (it takes some work, but it works). Last, you have to raise the price of the product to cover it. A carb may well not be $1000 anymore, it may be $5000. I know the engine in my kid's Cub is maybe $20k new and it isn't a whole lot different than the one that sold for $600 50 years ago......

I know company that made guns in the past. They were set up to defend suits and simply hammered anyone that tried to sue them. They were pretty successful and the principle finally retired and shut down...

On the family of the dead pilot suffering because he killed someone, he got killed and his estate got sued. All I can say is one thing. YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT BEFORE YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID (call it a mistake (also known as negligence in the law)) YOUR FAMILY CAN WELL SUFFER. They utlimately have to pay for your stupid mistakes.

WORSE than that are some people who have killed themselves when flying that were KEY family members. I can think of a few right now. High net worth, high earners, have an expensive toy. They are the ones that generate the cash flow that keeps the family in expensive cars, lots of mortgage payments, etc. Also they are sometimes the one who has built the business and may be the only one who knows how it runs. Makes a big difference if the family that spends every penny of $500k a year to get by, has $3mil in debts, no equity in anything, and daddy screws himself and the warbird into the ground (only killing himself). See how fast things unwind in that household.......

Jack Cook:

Interesting story there, all pretty much true I assume (sounds right).

The thing there is something that all states do not have which is called contributory negiligence, in other words, how much was the victim at fault and how should that affect what he recovers.

I don't know the details on the case or the lawyer, but if they could show by the injuries to the people in the water, that if they didn't stand up, they wouldn't have gotten hurt, the pilot should have gotten off. You can't jump into the street in front of a car, get killed, and expect the driver to go to jail.

The Stearman pilot made a really good deal and was fortunate the prosecutor let him off so lightly. Also I'm sure he was a nice guy, nice guys make mistakes too........ Still feel sorry for the victim's family.

An update on the update here:
Mark A. Strub, 45, of Arpin was given a six-month jail sentence by Portage County Circuit Court Judge Frederic Fleishauer, who acted as a substitute judge in the Wood County case. Fleishauer ordered the first 30 days served in jail with work release and the next 60 days served on electronic monitor. Strub may do 1,000 hours of community service in place of the final 90 days.


Mark H

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......

Posted November 7, 2007

Defendants point to victim in responses to lawsuit

By Karen Madden
Daily Tribune Staff

The victim of a plane crash whose husband filed a wrongful death lawsuit contributed to her own death by her actions, according to many responses from the defendants.


Kevin Reed of Eau Claire, Mich., filed the suit against organizers of the 2004 Children's Miracle Network Balloon Rally, as well as 26 other defendants. His wife, Kimberly Reed, was killed in a plane crash at the rally.


She knew the risks before she voluntarily took the airplane ride, according to the response filed by an attorney representing the town of Grand Rapids, the Municipal Airport Commission for Alexander Field, the South Wood County Airport, and the Old Republic Insurance Company.


Mark Strub, 45, of Arpin was piloting a 1941 Stearman biplane Aug. 28, 2004, when it hit power lines and crashed into the Wisconsin River, killing Kimberly Reed, who was 39 at the time. Strub is scheduled to go to trial Feb. 5 on a criminal charge connected to the crash.


No court dates have been scheduled in the civil case, which is currently assigned to Circuit Court Judge Greg Potter.


Responses from more than 20 defendants named in the suit have been filed at the Wood County Courthouse, and all the responses state technical reasons for opposing the litigation, such as a proper legal name not being used for Alexander Airport. Many defendants, such as the Children's Miracle Network, claim they are not legally able to be sued.


Attorney Thomas M. Devine of Racine, who is representing Strub and American National Property and Casualty in the civil case, filed a response stating Strub was confronted by an emergency that was not of his making.


Reed's lawsuits against Domtar and Wisconsin Power and Light state power lines across the river were not marked.


The suit also states airport officials and event organizers failed to warn pilots of the danger caused by the wires over the river.

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Fly safe or you get to meet me .......