Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:28 pm
Well said, Robbie!!
And thank you for your service!
And thank you for your service!
2 points
Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:59 pm
Robbie, two points: You make your emphasis on someone being a volunteer. I don't see how the loss of a life is insignificant just because someone is not a draftee. I morn not only the loss of the 4000, but all the severely wounded also. Many people have morned the loss of many firefighters and police in NY on 9-11. All of these professionals were volunteers. Do their lives not count? When you see a Father, Mother, or child on TV in agony because they have lost a loved one, they don't say only the draftees count!
2nd The idea that everyone believed in the Weapons of Mass Destruction myth, of bio and nuclear weapons in Iraq, just before the war is not true and is simply propaganda. If you are open minded enough to take a look, go to Google for "curveball, informant" and read that story. This is the phony that was the source of the bio weapons story that Colin Powell told at the UN complete with photos of trucks. I believe Powell was honest, but the story was BS and the German intel had told the administration that. Same with the story about Iraq buying nuclear yellowcake from Niger. Joe Wilson went there, since he contacts there, investigated and told the CIA there was no such deal. GWB/Cheney still claimed it anyway. During the times U N inspectors were there they found no such weapons, and they said so. When our FBI interogated Sadaam, he said he kept up the nuclear idea to scare Iran.
Were there reasons to invade Iraq, to justify the loss of these young people, like Sadaam being an evil guy? Maybe, but it was not the phony ones given to Congress and the American people back then.
2nd The idea that everyone believed in the Weapons of Mass Destruction myth, of bio and nuclear weapons in Iraq, just before the war is not true and is simply propaganda. If you are open minded enough to take a look, go to Google for "curveball, informant" and read that story. This is the phony that was the source of the bio weapons story that Colin Powell told at the UN complete with photos of trucks. I believe Powell was honest, but the story was BS and the German intel had told the administration that. Same with the story about Iraq buying nuclear yellowcake from Niger. Joe Wilson went there, since he contacts there, investigated and told the CIA there was no such deal. GWB/Cheney still claimed it anyway. During the times U N inspectors were there they found no such weapons, and they said so. When our FBI interogated Sadaam, he said he kept up the nuclear idea to scare Iran.
Were there reasons to invade Iraq, to justify the loss of these young people, like Sadaam being an evil guy? Maybe, but it was not the phony ones given to Congress and the American people back then.
Re: 2 points
Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:09 pm
Bill Greenwood wrote:Robbie, two points: You make your emphasis on someone being a volunteer. I don't see how the loss of a life is insignificant just because someone is not a draftee.
Never said it was "insignificant", Bill. I said they were volunteers- no one forced them to join, and they knew the risks going in. It is sad they died, but that is part and parcel of the job of being an Airman/Soldier/Sailor/Marine in the military. They were not drafted, so it wasn't fighting "someone else's war". They are fighting the war the Government which employs them ordered them to. And dying is part of it. Most people don't realize this- our enemy doesn't care whether he dies or not in this war. He is just happy to take one of us, or better more, with him, so he gets his 72 virgins in heaven. The closer you let it get to home, the worse the casualties will be. When car bombs start going off in Hometown USA, people will ask, "How did this happen?" the only answer will be, because we worried too much about the wrong things, and did not worry enough about what will happen if we do not fight them there. That is the military's job: we are all volunteers, and we all have accepted the risks. Quit crying for us, when we do not cry for ourselves. We cry for our friends, in private, but know they did not die in vain. So quit harping that innocents died. They didn't. Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen/Marines died. Doing their job. Safeguarding our country. Fighting the war their nation asked them to
Bill Greenwood wrote: 2nd The idea that everyone believed in the Weapons of Mass Destruction myth, of bio and nuclear weapons in Iraq, just before the war is not true and is simply propaganda....
Were there reasons to invade Iraq, to justify the loss of these young people, like Sadaam being an evil guy? Maybe, but it was not the phony ones given to Congress and the American people back then.
Bill, again, I must disagree: Yes, it is true that many of the informants were incorrect, or downright lying. And it is true other countries had different stories from other sources. However, when it a comes down to it, it is better to err on the side of defense: If someone says they are going to hit you, and your friend tells you he is going to hit you, but your other friends say he is not going to, but they all base this on things his friends have said, which do you believe? You hit him first, and take him out. Why? Because you have seen him hit others, he has said it so long that you believe him, even if he is bluffing. But you do not just wait and see after a cetrain point- because after that point he might just stab you- because while he was waiting to see what you did about his possibly hitting you, he bought a knife. Never give a dictator a chance to do to you what he has done to others first.
I am very glad we have Monday Morning Quarterbacks to point out our mistakes, and tell us what we should have done, and how stupid we were for believing things that we were told. It always helps to have people present more problems, rather than try to be part of the solution, anyway. I just wish we had elected all the people who know how to do everything right the first time, so we can cull them out for their costly mistakes.
Robbie
Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:12 pm
PS-
Bill, Just so you know, I'd still sit down and have a beer with ya!
Robbie
Bill, Just so you know, I'd still sit down and have a beer with ya!
Robbie
Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:23 pm
Robbie, I am so overawed by your comments that I can't even begin to form a reply. I really hope you realize taht a large number of military leaders AT THE TIME said taht this was a stupid fight to get into, and would break the backs of our military.
I realize that today every single member of the military enlisted WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that he would be going to Iraq. That doesn't excuse the stupidity with which this war has been planned, fought and led. Or the fact that it should never have been in the first place.
Today we hear the same mantra we heard in Vietnam: If we pull out they'll take over the world. I call BS.
Today we hear the same old mantra that we have to stay to prevent chaos. I call BS. It's already chaos.
Anything we do is just going to prolong our own agony. I vote we pull out and leave the Iraqis to work their own issues out, without the blood of any more of my friends being spilled, or any more of my taxes being wasted. We've already spent ourselves into a recession screwing around over tehre.
We should be focusing on Afghanistan, a real problem which if solved with patience and a sane game plan, could actually pay dividends in the future.
I vote we follow the bouncing ball, instead of wobbling around the world pissing people off and acting as if we actually had an EXCUSE for stomping the mudpuppies out of Iraw. That war is unjustified, unwinnable, and insane. To continue pouring lives and treasure into it is just as insane.
Thanks for serving, btw. It does matter, and I am grateful that you are willing to protect me even if we have differences about how you should be doing it. I've been in those shoes, and it's never easy. Great things never are.
Edit: Robbie, many of us in the Military community at the time were pretty sure that Saddam has WMD's. I have heard stories of thier being discovered and destroyed during the first sand box. I can't tell that story, but I believe it to this day. That doesn't mean we shoudl ever have considered invading Iraq and desroying their governement, defenses, and civilians in order to protect ourselves from what was obviously to most of the people I knew at the time, a red herring. the administration wanted to invade, so they jumped it up so they COULD invade. It's as simlple as that: groupthink, personal agendas, and pride made them drive us into this thing. You'll notice how many of that old crew are still waving their arms and acting as if invading Iraq was a brilliant idea. They aren't, because it wasn't. And staying is just as bad an idea.
I realize that today every single member of the military enlisted WITH THE KNOWLEDGE that he would be going to Iraq. That doesn't excuse the stupidity with which this war has been planned, fought and led. Or the fact that it should never have been in the first place.
Today we hear the same mantra we heard in Vietnam: If we pull out they'll take over the world. I call BS.
Today we hear the same old mantra that we have to stay to prevent chaos. I call BS. It's already chaos.
Anything we do is just going to prolong our own agony. I vote we pull out and leave the Iraqis to work their own issues out, without the blood of any more of my friends being spilled, or any more of my taxes being wasted. We've already spent ourselves into a recession screwing around over tehre.
We should be focusing on Afghanistan, a real problem which if solved with patience and a sane game plan, could actually pay dividends in the future.
I vote we follow the bouncing ball, instead of wobbling around the world pissing people off and acting as if we actually had an EXCUSE for stomping the mudpuppies out of Iraw. That war is unjustified, unwinnable, and insane. To continue pouring lives and treasure into it is just as insane.
Thanks for serving, btw. It does matter, and I am grateful that you are willing to protect me even if we have differences about how you should be doing it. I've been in those shoes, and it's never easy. Great things never are.
Edit: Robbie, many of us in the Military community at the time were pretty sure that Saddam has WMD's. I have heard stories of thier being discovered and destroyed during the first sand box. I can't tell that story, but I believe it to this day. That doesn't mean we shoudl ever have considered invading Iraq and desroying their governement, defenses, and civilians in order to protect ourselves from what was obviously to most of the people I knew at the time, a red herring. the administration wanted to invade, so they jumped it up so they COULD invade. It's as simlple as that: groupthink, personal agendas, and pride made them drive us into this thing. You'll notice how many of that old crew are still waving their arms and acting as if invading Iraq was a brilliant idea. They aren't, because it wasn't. And staying is just as bad an idea.
Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:44 pm
I will agree with the after the fact concept it was a bad idea. This is true. But we can't just cut our losses, and run out- the vacuum will suck in a lot more Jihadi elements than are there now, and the place will really collapse into total chaos- this is not BS, it is proven fact, that when a political system with a weak infrastructure is left to wither or grow, with no supporting framework, it collapses, and goes into total anarchy, as is the situation in Somalia, and other collapsed nations. We are the bulwark holding their country together We need to be there- it is our mess, we must clean it up. Responsibility is ours. We made Iraq into the mess it is.And if Iraq implodes, then we have one less(more or less) ally in the Middle East. And, another thing about the Midde East- They look at the US in a different light- They look at Viet Nam, and say, "They said they would stay. They ran away. What will they do in Iraq? Run away when their nose gets bloodied? They say they will stay, then leave. They can't be trusted"
Also, I feel Iraq has been a great "cover" for Afghanistan: Were it not for the media's attention being drawn to Baghdad, they could be spending time in Afghanistan, and giving away our operations there, as they do everywhere else. Iraq may have been a stupid, ill advised move, but the side benefits are actually pretty interesting. We have a pretty much un-media encumbered hand in Afghanistan: which leaves us reasonably able to pursue operations unhindered by the fifth column, um, sorry, fourth estate.
The best thing about our military is it is an all-volunteer military. The worst thing about our military is it is an all volunteer military. With a draftee force, we could have a much larger force to do the job. The years since the Reagan Administration have seen the military cut unreasonably. We used to have a force that could cover better than two fighting theatres at one time... Now look at the mess created by budget cuts and peaceniks who never realized, and still don't, that a strong military is essential. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "Speak softy, but carry a big stick"
Robbie
Also, I feel Iraq has been a great "cover" for Afghanistan: Were it not for the media's attention being drawn to Baghdad, they could be spending time in Afghanistan, and giving away our operations there, as they do everywhere else. Iraq may have been a stupid, ill advised move, but the side benefits are actually pretty interesting. We have a pretty much un-media encumbered hand in Afghanistan: which leaves us reasonably able to pursue operations unhindered by the fifth column, um, sorry, fourth estate.
The best thing about our military is it is an all-volunteer military. The worst thing about our military is it is an all volunteer military. With a draftee force, we could have a much larger force to do the job. The years since the Reagan Administration have seen the military cut unreasonably. We used to have a force that could cover better than two fighting theatres at one time... Now look at the mess created by budget cuts and peaceniks who never realized, and still don't, that a strong military is essential. As Teddy Roosevelt said, "Speak softy, but carry a big stick"
Robbie