Jay Leno P-51C

[k5083]

Xrayist, I can't see what point you're making. Part of the problem is you seem to be confusing "accurate" and "original".

Okay, no restored airplane and very few preserved ones are 100% original. That does not mean there is no difference between, just to pick numbers out of the air, 60% original and 2% original. To some of us it is nice -- not important, not an incitement to violence, just nice -- to have some idea how original an aiframe is.

Accurate is a different matter. An airplane can be 0% original yet very accurate in terms of its structure, configuration, paint job or anything else you want to choose. Many of us appreciate accuracy too. But it is a separate thing.

Finally, an airplane can be very nice without being either very original or very accurate. People on Wix seem to assume every criticism of an airplane to mean "I hate that airplane." Why are skins so thin?

August

[Jack Cook]

No need to apologize.

somehow I don't think he was

For those of you who don't like the paint job, get your wallets out and go up and pay for a new paint job. Discuss it with the Collings group and let them know you will pay for a new "correct!?" paint job, and then agree to the upkeep. That should soothe your sorrows and troubles over such a travesty as an inaccurate paint job. If you don't want to do that, well then, make sure you stay away from all those inaccurate warbirds out there

I think the original poster was just confused becuase it's a 'C' and the data block says 'B'. Many restored a/c have accurate paint schemes but their own s/n on the tail or data block.
and yes everys knows that the airplance is gorgeous from airframe to paint job so take a pill

[visaliaaviation]

You know it's not about jump seats, modern radios or even paint jobs. It's holding people to their stated goals, mision statements, etc. Think of all the crap and years of misinformation that could have been avoided with the "old Ironside" issue if only a few people had chosen to be carefull with facts and ommisions up front.

Think about how much MORE CREDIBLE any foundation other could be IF they actually projected an air of resposiblity to historical truth rather than the fiasco of excusses this argument has generated!!! Imagine now, the possible ramifications of this flap, should it become known outside of the WIX forum? Who should get the blame if this ultimately bites the foundation in the ass? Was it something some Wixer said??

For all the conservative people on this site, I get a little afraid that there is an apparent dis-connect between cause and effect(a little mis-information can't hurt now vs loss of credibility later on).If one talks the talk, one should be able to walk the walk.

[Saville]

All I know is that if someone chose to give me a 100% new P-51 with an innacurate paint job and a modern instrument panel, I really wouldn't cry overmuch at the inaccuracies and the fact that there's no part built in the '40's aside from the engine.

[RickH]

It wasn't Old Ironside (ie USS Constitution ) it was the USS Constellation !
Thought you wanted to get it right ?

The only thing not correct on the B24J is that it's not the real Witchcraft, wasn't the real Dragon and His Tail, wasn't the real All American. But what it is, is a very real and probably one of the most correctly restored and outfitted warbirds currently flying. That takes nothing away from Gary's near superhuman efforts to return 927 back to a semblance of her original self. Gary did more to return that aircraft to some resemblance of what she was built as. than the CAF did in 30 years of operation ! NO BODY is trying to minimize his efforts in any way.

NO ONE is trying to mislead the public, have some of you guys, questioning the validity, sincerity, and efforts to be faithful to the "mission statement " even been out around the people who make these aircraft go. Have you seen how they interact with the vets, the care taken with their families, and the interest in their stories ? Have you seen the guys out at night turning wrenches until God knows when and still be at the van and ready to go the next morning ?

When the aircraft that we paint, are done a great deal of care is gone into the research of that scheme. Is some artistic license applied ? Only occasionally such as a B-25J (TB-25N for the nitpickers )being painted as a "D". Even then, a great deal of research goes into these paint schemes to make sure they accuratey depict the original aircraft.


Here is a H&MS 11 Playboy aircraft Viet Nam 1970

http://www.skyhawk.org/5e/g153459/html/153489b.htm
http://www.skyhawk.org/5e/g154287/html/154339.htm

This is the Collings TA-4F BuNo 153524


But,... if we have an aircraft with individual combat history then every effort is made to duplicate ( with photodocumentation ) the combat scheme exactly.





Doug is right, when there is someone asking you questions on camera, you are trying very hard to answer the question succintly, but to still get the info out. There are no scripts and you have no idea what the next question is. You do the best you can, and hope they don't leave most of the info you think may be important on the cutting room floor.

Last edited by RickH on Thu May 29, 2008 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Glenn Wegman]

Hi Bill......I just thought I'd let you know that you can FLY an Allison farther than you can SHIP a Merlin! JC

That's great!

Please post the pics of the P-40's escorting the B-17's and B-24's at altitude over Germany. I'll bet it was quite a welcome, comforting sight for the bomber pilots

The -7 Merlin makes about .9hp per cubic inch at up to 20 some thousand feet.........and the Allison in your P-40 makes...................how much?

Glenn

Last edited by Glenn Wegman on Thu May 29, 2008 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[John-Curtiss Paul]

I've grown up with the whole Allison - Merlin debate around me my whole life and it's always been more of a razzing of individuals than a serious debate. More friends of ours have Mustangs than P-40's so its always been a nudge nudge joke about RELIABILITY and not PERFORMANCE. There is no doubt that the Merlin is a much more refined engine than the Allison and that it dominated in WWII. The Joke around me has always been about how reliable and maintenance free the Allison seems to be compared to the Merlin (50 hour inspections for instance).

As for our Mustang...believe me, ALL of our buddy's that fly Merlins have been giving us a hard time about finally having a Merlin in one of our airplanes! They don't seem to likely to let my Dad off the hook for all the smack talking (all in good fun) and razzing he's given them over the years when their Merlins were broken and his Allisons just kept on ticking along. Our P-40's have flown these engines 600-700 hours without any real trouble for many years. They are in fact a very very reliable design. Not the most powerful, but hey, we're not flying them in combat.

FYI. One day a few years back this old fella was in our museum and standing between a Merlin and an Allison that we have on display and after a while he spoke up and mentioned his experiences as an aircraft mechanic in WWII. He looked up at my Dad and said "You know, you can fly an Allison farther than you can ship a Merlin!"...it was pure Gold and that is where that quote came from originally, a man who worked on both of them in the field during the war. I personally think it's hilarious and goes to show that the debate about RELIABILITY has been around since the beginning.

[John-Curtiss Paul]

Hi Glenn,

I just noticed that several of the photos of Merlin powered airplanes and merlin engines on your website were in for engine maintenance and the engines were just returned from major repairs. Hmmmmmmmmm

I'm just razzing ya!
JC

[Forgotten Field]

Rick,
So why aren't you guys wearing turbans, chewing betel nut, and talking authentic on the B-24, "Chutney 23 is at point Lakshmi, no curry, Hey Rama," And when I mentioned vaudeville and snake oil, I was thinking of the time you tried to get me to have the F-4 up "to sit right next to its sister ship, and it won't cost more than..." Remember?

Good work all of you guys, Gary, Rick, et al. I thought working on Panchito in my spare time was rough. I can't imagine doing it full time, all the time. My hat's off to both of you. I really don't mean to be negatively critical- having seen both aircraft at different times, I am still in awe whenever I see them.

[Bill Greenwood]

John Paul, by now we have no doubt convinced you of the superiority of the Merlin, especially at altitude. Why, you'll be lucky if that Allison can even get you to pattern altitude at any airport higher than Death Valley. So you might as well just give up and push the P-40 over to the side and walk away. If you do, please leave the keys,the title, and the pilot manual in it and give me a call.

Last edited by Bill Greenwood on Thu May 29, 2008 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[retroaviation]

Hi Bill......I just thought I'd let you know that you can FLY an Allison farther than you can SHIP a Merlin! JC

That's great!

Please post the pics of the P-40's escorting the B-17's and B-24's at altitude over Germany. I'll bet it was quite a welcome, comforting sight for the bomber pilots

The -7 Merlin makes about .9hp per cubic inch at up to 20 some thousand feet.........and the Allison in your P-40 makes...................how much?

Glenn

Didn't P-38's have Allisons and fly fairly high? I'm just sayin....

Gary

[John Beyl]

The banter about a Merlin vs an Allison is mostly in good humor.

YIKES Joe....what Bill wrote! Friendly jabs. You might want to invest in a few high balls while you're sitting by that pool in Palm Springs!

John

[Mike]

Didn't P-38's have Allisons and fly fairly high? I'm just sayin....

Yeah, but it needed two of 'em to do it!

Now put 2 Merlins on a Mosquito, and you've got an aeroplane with the same range and payoad of the legendary B-17, which takes no less than 4 of those funny, leaky round engines to drag around!

[Glenn Wegman]

Didn't P-38's have Allisons and fly fairly high? I'm just sayin....
Gary

Sure did.............

With external Turbosuperchargers!
Try it without the extra help


JC,

I didn't realize that Allisons never needed an oil change!! That must cut down on operating costs considerably

Glenn

[Jesse C.]