Warbird Information Exchange

I think the future of the "Warbird Community" outside of institutions, is being spearheaded by the guys building the ME-262s and the Oscars. We are probably the last generation, group of people, whatever...who will actually see the original planes fly, or maybe get a ride in one, or maybe even fly one. I think I am safe in assuming, that the great majority of the flying warbirds today will be insitutionalized in non-flying status within the next 30-40 years. It won't take a law. All it's going to take is taxes, the staggering monetary value of the aircraft, and heirs who don't give a crap.

The reason I'm becoming a pilot, is to fly these airplanes. If I'm lucky, I will be one of the last people, or group of people, to do that. The kid born today, probably won't see one fly, and definately will never fly one. I'm not dissing all of the volunteers at all of the air museums, but if my only interaction, forever, with these aircraft, is to polish them, or explaining "The Greatest Generation" to a bunch of disinterested kids, I, along with, many potential volunteers and future pilots, will probably stop caring about any of it. "They're in a museum, they should be ok" or "I went there when I was a kid, that was neat".

There needs to be flying aircraft available for those who would be interested in them in the future, hell we need to make more of them now.

As far as education, or interest,, My own contemporaries (40ish) know very little, or nothing about the history of these aircraft, or anything else for that matter. They will be able to tell you how many times Ross and Rachel have been together, but December 7th, or June 6th, means nothing to them. You're either interested, or you're not, and won't be. We need to keep the "interested", interested. If there is no chance of seeing and possibly using the aircraft outside of a museum, a good chunk of the interested, are going to use their time and money, riding dirt bikes, or whatever.

More aircraft need to be built.

Rob, I did not mean to offend you and I certainly am not denigrating the accomplishments of the veterans who run many of the big museums.

That said, here goes the rant. The big museums, USNAM, USAFM and many others are not part of the warbird movement. The big military backed static display houses are simply that, they do nothing to advance the cause of building new wings that can race at Reno, recovering or allowing recovery of airframes in the bush/water ect. There is a sense of disbelief that you would even consider the USNAM as a group that preserves aircraft other than the ones that they own. There are a hundred SNJ's in the lake they won't let anyone touch, they has another fifty scrapped a couple years ago. Those guys sued a member of the warbird movement who recovered one of their crashes, as they had done succesfully several times before. They are simply an obstacle in many senses of the word. The USAFM has discarded or condemmed many good airframes to outrside display, and thankfully has been selling off the ones that were being wrecked and replacing them with fiberglas replicas.

It was not my intent to say that veterans of the second world war did not have a part in the restoration of aircraft. Just that they were not the driving force in the "movement" to recreate and fly many new types. The warbird movement to me is companies like Airframs Assemblies, Historic Flying, Flugwerk, Texas Airplane Factory, Ezell Aviation, ect..Places where the magic of new and exciting restorations dazzle us from time to time. Thats all I was getting at. To ignore the contributions of all of those who make the flying happen was what got me started.

As for the flying, believe me with Stallion 51 on down, pilots are being trained. It is tough to find guys with a lot of tailwheel time, and tougher still for those few to find rides in warbirds...A couple of my friends and I have a Waco coming in a few weeks to replace the N2S we used to fly around, and hopefully an SNJ in a year or so. Either way, hopefully the aircraft will be there for us all to experience. This is a big business and while there are many facets to it, I really don't concern myself with the large "static houses" scattered across the world. They don't show anyone how wonderous these airplanes are, just as a hunter's trophy wall does not show the animal he/she shot for sport. For me its the workers and people that give everything to put them in the air again. They work long hours and have given a lot of other possiblitites up in their lives for who knows what reason. Its incredibly hard work, and cannot be hurried or "good enoughed". They have let me help them on the peripheries, and I have seen them drive many projects to stunning completion. Hopefully one day I will finance a project or two and ... well you know.

Rob no offense indended.

Since I will be turning 67 later on this month, I guess this might put me in the "senior" class of WIX'ers. I think my interest in warbirds began when I was about 6 or 7, and my older brother and I used to build the solid wood Strombecker model airplane kits. I recall that we built P-40's and B-17s, and probably some others that I have long forgotten. The other thing I recall about those days, was going to the bluff overlooking Lake Michigan, in my hometown of Lake Forest, Illinois. and watching the navy planes landing on the SABLE and WOLVERINE. The side paddle wheel "carriers" would leave Navy Pier in Chicago and steam up and down the western shore of Lake Michigan, and the planes took off from NAS Glenview, just north of Chicago. I watched several of them get pushed overboard if they came to grief on the deck and some others that overshot the deck and ditched.
This would have been in about 1943-44 and early 45.
In high school, I joined the Palwaukee Sqdn. of the Civil Air Patrol, and in 1957, enlisted in the Air Force, where I did 4 years in SAC as an Air Operations Specialist.
I've been photographing airplanes since the mid '50s and retired in 2003 from Northwest Airlines. I have been doing one thing or another with warbirds since those early days.
In all the years I have been going to Oshkosh and other airshows, I have noticed that in the early days, the warbird pilots were all older than the planes they flew. Right now, I'd be hard pressed to name more than half a dozen guys that are older than their airplanes. Every year there are more and more late '20, early '30s warbird owners showing up. This is great, and I'm sure that things like the EAA YOUNG EAGLES PROGRAM, are the future of our movement.
Keep 'em Flying, guys.

Dick Phillips

Actually, the SNJ's in Florida that were scrapped belonged to Lance aircraft. They removed all usable/valuable components and scrapped the corroded remains. These aircraft had been under private ownership for many years before Lance acquired them.

This info came right from the owner of Lance when I went to their Texas headquarters earlier this year.

By the way, what is the value of one of those SNJ's on the bottom of the lake? Probably negative by the time you recover and restore one.

Scott,

With all due respect to you the Veterans are not the driving force behind the Warbird movement. It is US, the "30 to 60 somethings" that are the force behind it so that we may honor our Veterans, rmember the deeds they have domne for all of us and offer them the respect and attention they deserve for doing that work.

I agree with you that we need to do a better job of recruiting young folks into avaition in general at the grass roots level.

the real truth is that it will be insurance that puts an end to flying these acft... don't get started on recuiting qualified folks to fly what is out there... what it is all about is "who you know" and "$$$$$" ... qualification and ability really don't matter.... our "wreckord" the last few years is getting worse and it shows in the insurance.. people are flying this stuff without the background, ability or attitude that is required to keep this stuff around for many more years to come... how many of you "owners" are doing Hull insurance now????... at 15K a year for my fleet and one under hull i now don't insure at all... 15K is a new motor for a stearman and 30K is a T-6... there are also folks out there with 30+ years of warbird/ tail wheel time with proven safety records that are not "in" because it's all about who you know or whether you can buy your way in...
they arn't looking for good, solid qualfied folks.. they are looking for those with $$$ or are part of the in crowd.... SO BRAD HOW FAR OFF AM I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so i'll quietly build, maintain andfly my own stuff and watch the rest turn a lot of it into scrap metal... anyone have a F6F fus ???? that's all i need to start that project....
k

Hi Rob,

I know that you requested ideas be sent to your e-mail, but this message is for a wider range of readers.

As a veteran educator (man, I sound old ), this is an open message for any of our readers who are involved in promoting aviation experiences to area youth. Contact schools and teachers NOW. It's during the summer months (at least here in the states) that teachers are preparing for what science, history, or any other units they plan on including for the 2004-2005 school year. It will do little good to extend an invitation a day, a week, or even a month in advance of your event--unless, of course, your planned aviation activity would happen to occur coincidentally with an already-planned teaching experience. Believe me, the teachers (worth their salt) are planning and preparing now.

As for communication, contacting those teachers during the summer months can pose a challenge as well. A blurb in the newspaper will reach some, and a form letter to the school will typically get tossed (at the school where I currently serve as principal, a teacher receives approx. 15-25 pieces of junk mail each day). Make your invitation by phone. Inquire as to whether a certain period of history or subject in science could be taught to coincide with the special event you have planned (as several have already stated, follow-up is key). Offer your assistance in as many areas as possible. And don't forget, the word FREE (at least in my neck of the woods) goes a long way with districts which always seem strapped for funds.

A few days ago a 3rd grader stopped me in the hallway and asked, "Will you still be doing the airplane-ride thing when I get older?" I assured her that, if at all possible, I would. Her response? "YES!"

Have a great day everyone,

Dan

Ps. For all of our posters who lately have been bashing the public educational system, there's no need to apologize: I teach in a Christian parochial setting; and yes, I instructed my staff to leave the TV's on during 9/11 and watch with their students--knowing full well that these future grandparents would one day be asked, "Where were you when it happened?...What was it like?".

_________________
It was a good idea, it just didn't work.

I agree. Insurance and Taxes will ground more aircraft than anything else. I gotta ask,,,I saw F6F and Canby together. You don't happen to have the F6F that went down in Canby in 1977? I saw that plane at the airshow the day before, when I was a kid.

bill compton... lives about a mile from me .... i see him regularly....i know nothing....

JCW

I don't think your far off at all!! It boils down to insurance. I know people that have several airplanes and need pilots but can't insure them. Sometimes they don't get to fly because of personality clashes and such, but more often than not, It's due to the lack of insurance.

I know people that are highly experienced warbird pilots, with hundreds of hours in Mustangs, Sea Furys, T-6's and such, but they can't be insured because their time isn't "recent". If you are part of the in crowd, and the owner really wants you in the cockpit, then usually arrangements can usually be made so that you can log the hours that are needed for insurance. I have a friend that was able to get an LOA in a Seafury a year or so back. He got to fly the plane just enough to get the sign off and hasn't flown it since because he lacks the hours needed for insurance coverage. What I always have a hard time understanding is how he is supposed to get the hours if he can't fly the plane to build the hours.

I guess a person could go down to Stallion 51, mortgage everything he owns, steal some money and get his LOA in the TF-51. That would probably give him enough hours for insurance. Of course, like lots of up and coming, wannabe warbird throttle jockeys, he couldn't afford to go to Stallion 51. There have been lots of warbird pilots that don't have a nickle to their name and got to fly other peoples planes because of their skill. That still happens to a point, but not like it used to.

I honestly believe that the insurance industry will be the end of this business. There will always be people that will fly warbirds anyhow, insurance be damned. But it will never be the same.


I think we should all enjoy it while it lasts.

_________________
Brad

Slightly depressing topic. Why don't we just talk about when a giant meteor might slam into the Earth and wipe out all the warbirds?

OK, on the serious side I really don't think it's as bad as all that. While there are still many WW2, Korea and Vietnam vets who fly warbirds, there are just as many who, like me, came up from the J-3 cub ranks (40 years old and grew up at the airport) and never got the opportunity to fly in the military.

It was the return of WWI pilots that kicked off the barnstormer age, and it was the WW2 vets who really got the ball rolling on preserving warbirds in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. As these vets retire and prices increase the warbird ranks are now being filled by the only people left, namely business owners and entrepreneurs. Well, who else? To fly a warbird you have to 1) Be a pilot 2) Have the time and ratings required, which doesn't happen in a year or two, so business flying is a plus 3) Be able to afford to buy the plane 4) Be able to afford to fly the plane 5) Be able to afford to maintain the plane, and 6) Often be able to self insure the plane. Think about all that the next time you hear someone sprout off about "rich yuppie" warbird pilots who just want to walk around in a flightsuit.

Trouble is, warbirds are expensive. They're expensive to buy, expensive to fly and expensive to maintain. Insurance is a problem, as is the increasing price of engine overhauls, availability of spares, trained mechanics, the ever changing requirements of the FAA concerning training and proficiency. But in spite of all this, warbirds will continue to fly. They will be safe for the next generation because owners do it out of a love and pashion for these aircraft and the joy that comes from flying them, and hang the expense. Just don't tell my wife.

So don't worry, warbirds are not going anywhere. From Microsoft's Paul Allen buying everything under the sun to the guy who decides today is the day he's going to step up and buy a Yak or L-19, to the guy who helps wrench on some project the warbird movement is being energized with new members. It's one of the things that I love most about warbirds, that it is an inclusive club. And behind the owners and pilots and volunteers is a public that loves these airplanes and attending airshows, even if most of them don't know a Stearman from a Jenny.

When I bought my first warbird the guy told me I'd make 100 new friends. Just add another zero and you'll come close.

Steve Patterson

brad might be going to Oly this year in race 9... skeets asked so now i need the time from this job... i got 5 more years... how bout you???

steve
you need someone to help you fly your warbird??? how about an 9000+ hours in mil and civ antiques and warbirds current and own a t-6 (as well as many others) comm inst rated, IA on same, still in mil with all the safety programs, unlimited LOA high perf single / multi eng piston, and the list goes on from there....

I think this isn't such a good idea...

Let the WOA, CAF, and other responsible organizations set up standards and training programs like they have for formation training (FAST). Education, cooperation, and self policing amongst the enthusiast organizations has been proven to work.

Keep the government out of it if at all possible. Any authority that is offered to them will be gladly accepted- then BAM! Some knucklehead with something to prove will make a powerplay, and rule by governmental fiat will be the new standard... Your freedoms will be lost and you will be remembering "the good old days." Remember, the government changes players like I change my underwear... Well, that might not be a good analogy, but what you agree to (a rule interpretation for instance) with one guy will be lost a few months later when that guy gets reassigned or retires.

What training is keeping pilots out of warbirds now?

BDK,
be careful, (this will make a few of you real happy) I am not a huge fan of the EAA, or CAF in regards to policing and setting up training for warbirds... personally they have made it a good old boys club and very lukerative (sorry didn't go to school to learn how to spell) for a very few ..lets talk about the big iron for a second.. and lets say a B25.. first you have to get some dual (min 3 hours) then take a type check ride (acft is over 12.5K) and then a type currency check every year after (some exceptions) who is going to do that ??? well now, EAA took it over and you have to go to one of THEIR ENDPR's .... they decide who that is going to be and that is a real club... there are only a very few of them (last count i recall 12) if you can get on their sched you pay to get them to you (ie airline fare) hotel and per diem for every day they are there and $500 a day whether they fly or not (ie if the acft has a maint prob.. not uncommon with these acft)... and if two of you are getting a check on the same day and flight then its $1000 , every year..... as for the formation stuff the only thing that makes part of it legit is some of the guys teaching it are ex mil guys with lots of experiance... formation is a disiplined art. in the mil it takes 10 rides in a t-37 and maybe 15 in a t-38 with a check to be safe on your own and then suppervised for a while after that doing it twice a week or so.. civ world you can get signed off in a weekend with 4 flights (as i recall) and once a year... sorry i'm not real comfortable flying with someone like that... i'll stick with the mil and ex mil folks ( i know what they will do) what do you think randy H... ok time to get off my soap box i've said way more than i'm use to in one setting...by

Me neither, but previously there was no "certification" requirement at all for formations at an airshow. The point is I think that you are supposed to learn the basics during training and then practice. Would you want to fly in IMC with a pilot that has only previously flown IFR during recurrency checks and never on his or her own in actual IMC?