Wreck Chasing in Africa?

[DaveM2]

If I wasn't met with a wall of silence, I could answer your questions. As for the reasons, I can only speculate.

[warbird1]

If I wasn't met with a wall of silence, I could answer your questions. As for the reasons, I can only speculate.

O.K., thanks for the info. That "cloak and dagger" stuff sounds very Paul Allen-ish!

[JDK]

G'day Shay,
Long post! Good one too. A couple of quick responses.

No one addressed by two initial questions directly, hence a more blunt and tongue in cheek second post, you're taken it a bit more seriously that it was intended. Those questions again:

As the financial services say '...previous performance is no guarantee of future results...' But it's a good start for investigations.

How many warbirds have been recovered from North Africa?

How many warbirds have been recovered from the Takoradi route?

It's worth noting that the condition of the North African campaign and the Takoradi Rote are different - really different topics.

'Experts'. I've been writing about warbirds specifically for twenty years now; I'm often wrong, but it's an area I'm very interested in. One of my jobs is reporting on warbirds - unlike most here. (Doesn't make me right, certainly not important, nor a professional aviator, but let's accept some people here have expertise in specific areas - not just the pilots, engineers and rebuilders.) The other professional reporters generally don't bother to participate for the reasons demonstrated around my collage Dave M2's posts in this thread. Something for the expert-bashers (not you, Shay) to consider regarding the quality of WIX's discussions.

Unlike many, I'm not a romantic about recoveries; the details are out there - once you drop the Clive Cusstler and Indianna Jones (and certain 'factual' accounts) excitement, it's not a very smart game most of the time. Very rarely it is worthwhile.

I don't give a d@mn where anyone's from as long as they have reasonable manners. Certainly don't care where they come from or go to or if they want to go hunting warbirds - go to it, great. (So don't be a defensive American - it looks funny - you read a slant into my comments that's not there.)

With Warbird recoveries there's a role for scoping out probability and areas of interest - however throwing up W.W.II photos and the level of analysis here so far isn't even on the playing board. It's harmless fun, but no one should kid themselves it's of any use at all - yet. The 200th post might be gold.

The vast majority of neglected warbirds needing care or up for recovery or restoration are already in collections - hence my comment in the 'Behind the Southern Museum of Aviation Annex' thread asking 'is this N Africa?' But despite being a far better bet, it's not romantic to go after those, and the work, while it's own reward isn't as romantic as recoveries. Ryan's thread listing recoveries assumed everything recovered was restored - far from always the case, and another skill-set.

Bluntly it's the difference between investing wisely for a guaranteed low long term return, or buying a lottery ticket. Humans are suckers for that.

Don't get the idea I'm against recoveries - things like the Skua in Norway, the amazing story of Glacier Girl, the tragedy of Kee Bird, I'm there with everyone else. But just supporting a vague discussion is pointless. You have to test the hypothesis, and you need to bring your critical facilities. Sure we need to have an open, constructive discussion, but it's fatuous to say 'it'd be cool if they are out there - they must have left some here'.

I'll see about trying to respond to your other points when I can. But now I've got to set the traps around the temple again, as I'm expecting Harrison Ford to drop by.

In the meantime, I'm still interested in the answers to questions one and two, above.

[PeterA]

In both Libya and Egypt, do not under estimate the mine fields. Locals are still regularly falling prey after all these years. They were never fully documented and responsibility for clearing is still the subject to inter-government wrangling.

Be sure to drive within the flags or markers...if you can see them in the sand storms.






I would doubt that major finds will be made within the relatively thin coastal strip of operations in North Africa. The LBG situation was pretty unique.

Judging by the large number of RAF 'Repair and Salvage' units known to be active in India and Burma it fair to assume similar units were in place along the Takoradi route.

The aircraft found in Iraq and Afghanistan in recent times are in a different category in my view. They were in military terms dumped in scrap 'no go' areas of just a few square miles.

PeterA

Last edited by PeterA on Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

There are a few people doing some work in that direction. Dave

The Pzkpfw III Ausf M in the Panzermuseum in Munster was recovered from Tunisia in 1986

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzers.html

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26034&highlight=

Last edited by west-front on Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.

[Mark_Pilkington]

.
Tourist 4 wheel drive excusions have been putting aircraft wrecks on their trips, but not complete airframes sufficient to constitute a restoration?

These remains have been obviously known to the locals for many years and well stripped.


An anonomous wreck in the Namibia Desert.



A wreck in the Egyptian Desert.

http://confluence.org/eg/all/n29e027/pic8.jpg



The SAAF Blenheim found complete in the Lybian Desrt in 1959 was scrapped on the spot by locals





http://www.fjexpeditions.com/frameset/expeditions.htm

Obviously there is a the opportunity something substantial could still be out there, and eventually turn up, but the risk is locals will find it first and simply scrap it on site, as in the case of the Blenheim above or the many wrecks in PNG.

regards

Mark Pilkington

[JDK]

One of the wrecks in N Africa was a Hermes which was 'refound' for Aeroplane magazine.

* May 26 1952 - Hermes IV G-ALDN (Horus), en route from Tripoli, Libya, to Kano, Nigeria, flew off-course for several hours and ran out of fuel, crashing into the Sahara Desert south of Atar, Mauritania. The passengers and crew all survived the crash. They spent several days in the desert before making their way to an oasis, where First Officer Ted Haslam, who had suffered a head injury in the crash, died.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handley_Page_Hermes

I don't recall the exact details of the story, but there wasn't much left, even in that remote location.

[george]

I remember reading a few years ago that a Martin Marauder was pulled out of a lake in Tunisia. Where did this Widow Maker end up?

[Dan K]

I remember reading a few years ago that a Martin Marauder was pulled out of a lake in Tunisia. Where did this Widow Maker end up?

Good question. This story seems to have dropped off the radar.

For those interested, the Marauder involved was 41-17759, having crashed into Lake Tunis on Dec. 15, 1942. Plane flew with 319th BG/437th BS. Nose art was "Horse Feathers". Crew remains were recovered and interred at Arlington about 5 years ago.

[Dave Homewood]

A Short Sunderland Mk III of No. 490 (NZ) Squadron apparently sank in a river near their base at Jui in West Africa. That may be recoverable.

I remember reading a few years ago that a Martin Marauder was pulled out of a lake in Tunisia. Where did this Widow Maker end up?

Good question. This story seems to have dropped off the radar.

For those interested, the Marauder involved was 41-17759, having crashed into Lake Tunis on Dec. 15, 1942. Plane flew with 319th BG/437th BS. Nose art was "Horse Feathers". Crew remains were recovered and interred at Arlington about 5 years ago.

http://www.b26.com/guestbook/2003.htm

Date: 5/14/2003 Time: 6:28:13 AM

Aloha-

First, I would like to apologize for taking so long in writing back to you. Our work/travel schedules here at the lab are quite chaotic at times, but that is no excuse for being remiss in thanking those who have helped so much! As you may or may not remember, the U.S. Army Central Identification Laboratory-Hawaii (USA-CILHI) was contacted by the U.S. Embassy, Tunis, Tunisia in November 2000 with information that a possible American aircraft had been discovered in Lac Sud (South Lake), Tunis during dredging operations associated with a large-scale engineering project in the lake.

Human remains were also recovered from the wreckage. The Tunisian Navy was summoned shortly after the discovery and recovered several aircraft items which led them to believe that the aircraft was most likely American and of WWII vintage. Myself and two military personnel from USA-CILHI were sent to investigate the aircraft in question and determine if her crew were American in origin.

Our research section began researching all Missing Aircrew Reports (MACRs) for this region. Since we do not actively investigate and recover WWII-era crash sites, the needed documentation was not on hand at our laboratory and had to be collected and compiled from various sources.

Upon arrival in country, we commenced investigating the wreckage with the assistance of the U.S. Embassy, Tunisian Navy and the commercial dredging company on Lac Sud. The wreckage was extremely concentrated. Depth ranged from approximately 75 cm to a dredged depth of 2.5m.

It was clear from a review of the recovered wreckage that the plane had been built in America - e.g. pump stamped with "Thompson Product Cleveland, OH", Goodyear tires, etc. The plane could not be identified from the recovered wreckage, so we began work to bring up more of the wreckage in an attempt to identify the plane. The lake sediment consisted of a high concentration of clay which served to hold pockets of oil and fuel from the aircraft even after all these years.

In this environment (anaerobic), decomposition in retarded which provides for excellent reservation. We recovered the emergency instructions manual for a B-26, a Thompson submachine gun manual, a navigation logbook, maps of "Alger" and "Mascara", and other aircraft/crew related evidence.

At this time, I found your website while searching the Internet from my hotel room in Tunis. What a wonderful resource! Your site and personal attention to tracking down possible leads on this case were invaluable in the field. A month after arriving to investigate the aircraft wreckage, we were able to make a solid recommendation that the aircraft was probably American in origin and should be fully excavated in part due to your assistance. A full team returned in January 2001.

Personal effect evidence recovered during the excavation identified the plane as a B-26 lost on 15 December 1942 from the 319th Bomb Group/437th Bomb Squadron (MACR 16380) with a crew of six. The crew was subsequently identified at our laboratory through anthropological, odontological and mtDNA analyses and returned to their families.

Again, thank you so much for helping us be successful in this endeavor! If I can be of any assistance to you in the future, do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards and keep up the great work!
Gwen
Forensic Anthropologist/Evidence Curator
USA-CILHI

[marine air]

Um, JDK, Bet you thought I wasn't going to respond. I have been working a lot and my laptop doesn't work that well at Flight level 430.
I'm an optimist and no I have only talked to folks that have been to Africa not been trhere myself.
I am told it's hot, dry, harsh and inhospitable to most humans and host to some of the poorest nations on earth. Most of the scrap operations you talk of were in the industrialized nations and on behalf of countries from those industrialized nations.
I don't think anyone believes there would still be piles of german aircraft left intact after 60 years. While you talk about downed aircraft being found and later picked over, it must be noted that those photos are all of wrecks on trails and other tourist sites and of course any wreck found, and made public isn't going to stay intact very long.
That's a testament to how uninformed the locals are. There are goiung to be wrecks found in the boonies, much like the wrecks that came out of Alaska in the 1970's and they will be in fairly good shape given the passage of time.
I also predict that just like the Skyraiders and A-37's that came out of Vietnam in the 1990's and all the german armor being found and retreived from the eastern Eurpean countries in the 1980s and 1990's,there will be pits , and salvage areas found in those countries.
A friend of mine was trying to put together a group of guys last year to go retrieve defunct C-130's from some of those countries and return them to Marietta, Georgia to be refurbished. If they have C-130s derelict ,they have other aircraft. You'll notice whenever there's a coup they always show pictures of Mig's laying around in the bushes. If you look you will also see Saia Marchetti SF-260's , King Airs, Cessna C-185's etc.
Compared to what is being brought out of New Guinea, that stuff is in excellent condition. The Fairey Fireflies and Saab B-17's that were brought out of Ethiopa ten years ago were only found because a Canadian C-130 was flying a humanitarian mission into a military base closed to the public. SOmeone on the C-130 knew what he was looking at otherwise they would be still there.
Is there any chance someone could find a bunch of P-51's or Spitfires? Well wasn't it just last year someone found a Me-109 in a park in India no one cared about. Wasn't there a squadron of Spitfires found in a hangar in Burma a few years ago?
There will be worthwhile projects brought out of the African continent that will be more than just patterns and data plates.
One of those SF 260's would be a cool project!

[PeterA]

Is there any chance someone could find a bunch of P-51's or Spitfires? Well wasn't it just last year someone found a Me-109 in a park in India no one cared about. Wasn't there a squadron of Spitfires found in a hangar in Burma a few years ago?

Well not exactly - 'found'.

All these aircraft were known to exist and I had visited several of them on previous trips to Burma.

In 1995 the Burmese Government/Air Force collected all but one of the 'display' Spitfire/Seafires scattered around airbases and national monuments back to the Mingaladon base at Rangoon. There they assessed the best pair for display at their new Services Museum and put the remaining four up for tender and disposal a couple of years later. After some badgering and the good offices of the British High Commission, I was granted access and permission to photograph in January 1996.

Burma is a very difficult place in which to operate. Rumours of buried aircraft abound, some with good foundation. Areas in the North and West of the country are likely areas for finds.

Two of the Mk IX's here are on schedule to fly in 2009/10, in NZ and the UK respectively.

PeterA

[JDK]

Um, JDK, Bet you thought I wasn't going to respond.

Don't mind! Hoping for Shay, as well. The following is meant to be tongue in cheek - but accurate.

Most of the scrap operations you talk of were in the industrialized nations and on behalf of countries from those industrialized nations.

Actually, I know what I meant, and said. Much of the materiel in North Africa was scrapped or removed piecemeal - I wasn't generalising on a global basis here - that's been others.

I don't think anyone believes there would still be piles of german aircraft left intact after 60 years.

Good. If you find anyone that gullible, get them to send their funds to me, eh?

While you talk about downed aircraft being found and later picked over, it must be noted that those photos are all of wrecks on trails and other tourist sites and of course any wreck found, and made public isn't going to stay intact very long.

Some of what you airily refer to as 'tourist sites' are people heading to what is essentially a random spot in the sand...

That's a testament to how uninformed the locals are. There are goiung to be wrecks found in the boonies, much like the wrecks that came out of Alaska in the 1970's and they will be in fairly good shape given the passage of time.

Fine. My polite response is to ask how are you going to substantiate this. Have you any evidence? Any wrecks?

We can draw comparisons with places x y or z until we are blue in the face - none of this is in any way viable to put an expedition together. There probably are wrecks in North Africa awaiting finding - I'll be very surprised if they are cost effective to pull out. How much is a Ju 52/3m wreck worth? They probably won't be the big price ticket items.

What am I talking about? We don't even know of any!

I also predict that just like the Skyraiders and A-37's that came out of Vietnam in the 1990's and all the german armor being found and retreived from the eastern Eurpean countries in the 1980s and 1990's,there will be pits , and salvage areas found in those countries.

The Vietnam stuff came off airfields for the most part, and the bits in fields in Vietnam have gone.

Tanks are rather different in their survival chances to aircraft. No one's fired up an aircraft and flown it off a target range after being shot at for years. A tank however, has.

A friend of mine was trying to put together a group of guys last year to go retrieve defunct C-130's from some of those countries and return them to Marietta, Georgia to be refurbished. If they have C-130s derelict ,they have other aircraft. You'll notice whenever there's a coup they always show pictures of Mig's laying around in the bushes. If you look you will also see Saia Marchetti SF-260's , King Airs, Cessna C-185's etc.

The Herc idea is the first credible idea in this post. But have a look at the issue. Abandoned post-war types of low resale value are not W.W.II wrecks. Those airfields (the ones with the MiGs) don't have pre Soviet era material for the most part.

Compared to what is being brought out of New Guinea, that stuff is in excellent condition. The Fairey Fireflies and Saab B-17's that were brought out of Ethiopa ten years ago were only found because a Canadian C-130 was flying a humanitarian mission into a military base closed to the public. SOmeone on the C-130 knew what he was looking at otherwise they would be still there.

Nope. Other plans were underway. You'll also note how many are a) restored b) flying and c) how many people have got rich from that 'easy' recovery. It was a great achievement, but let's do some maths. If I want a Firefly, there's easier ones to get.

Is there any chance someone could find a bunch of P-51's or Spitfires?

Yes. Apart from faith, how do we proceed? Dowsing?

Well wasn't it just last year someone found a Me-109 in a park in India no one cared about.

Maybe you'd like to do a bit of internet searching about that. a) I'm not commenting except to say b) some people care very much about it.

Wasn't there a squadron of Spitfires found in a hangar in Burma a few years ago?

Note Peter's response. Note my earlier remark that those that monitor these caches already know and are already watching these sorts of situations.

There will be worthwhile projects brought out of the African continent that will be more than just patterns and data plates.

Please don't be offended if I don't send any money now.

One of those SF 260's would be a cool project!

Very expensive, though.

Don't think I want to be negative, but vague generalisations like 'they must be out there' are best kept to second rate TV shows. At the end of the day it's going to take money. Those putting up the money aren't going to pay for someone to wander a 1/3 of a continent on the off chance.

What has been found so far?

What is awaiting (legal) recovery?

Are there any good leads to other stuff?

My limited knowledge has been shared. Peter's remarks are pithy, and worth thinking about. He has been and he does know.

By all means, prove me wrong. But that ain't going to happen with 'they're out there'.

Regards,

[JDK]

Funny I should mention Junkers.

In Russia, and thanks to Paul Macmillan and Rudd for the info:

http://www.ruudleeuw.com/search136.htm

Now, what's it worth?