Spitfires & pilots

More gems from Time Life, light on specific detail unfortunately, but perhaps enough for the Spitfire devotees here

Raf Daylight Fighter Sweep William Vandivert

[JDK]

Thanks!

The last shot symbolises why I loathe wartime propaganda shots.

"Stare vacantly into the sky in a kind of aspirational 'straining to the stars' way so the rest of the squadron take the p1ss out of you."

To the strains of " There will always be an England ...."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-7o4xEQCWs

[PeterA]

Thanks!

The last shot symbolises why I loathe wartime propaganda shots.

"Stare vacantly into the sky in a kind of aspirational 'straining to the stars' way so the rest of the squadron take the p1ss out of you."

...pan to shot of sorrowful looking Labrador dog.

[Oscar Duck]

note no serial number..what squadron??

without 'staged' pictures I would suggest that there would be fewer pics, not more. during my time in the service just about all pics taken [and I was in a few] were "staged" - just like today's press...

interesting to say the least. those guys in the pics are great.

[PeterA]

note no serial number..what squadron??

without 'staged' pictures I would suggest that there would be fewer pics, not more. during my time in the service just about all pics taken [and I was in a few] were "staged" - just like today's press...

interesting to say the least. those guys in the pics are great.

All joking aside these are wonderful images that I personally have never seen before.

I am leaning toward them being Mk IIa Spitfires of 91 Squadron from 1941 with the D obscured by the door, but by no means 100% and further research is required.

Odd Spitfires are known to have carried their serial at the top of the fin.

PeterA

[JDK]

without 'staged' pictures I would suggest that there would be fewer pics, not more.

Oh, absolutely, no argument. My issue, shall we say, isn't the original pics, or the original use, but modern specialist publications taking some really obviously posed high-cheese shot and captioning it 'Crew discussing their mission around the tailplane' - because the author/editor is too lazy to 'read' the picture properly.

These have much merit because the aircraft and airmen are 'real' although posed. It's like believing airmen in W.W.II said 'mucking' when under stress (as many novels of the time claimed.)

during my time in the service just about all pics taken [and I was in a few] were "staged" - just like today's press...

Sure, they were. However the high-cheese 'look like a birdman please' shots are a lot less common; while there are some that are going to be thought risible in the future, we are much more visually literate and cynical than the 1940s Life / Picture Post reader (- note, not 'smarter', we just see more and are desensitised to that degree).

Cheers,

[Dave Smith]

I'd suggest it is a 54 Sqdn aircraft (KL code) at either Martlesham or Hornchurch. The A or C-Type hangars are the clue. 91 Sqn was at Hawkinge at that time and the hangars were WW1 General Service type.
Whatever, they are a brilliant set of pics. Thanks for posting.

[PeterA]

I'd suggest it is a 54 Sqdn aircraft (KL code) at either Martlesham or Hornchurch. The A or C-Type hangars are the clue. 91 Sqn was at Hawkinge at that time and the hangars were WW1 General Service type.
Whatever, they are a brilliant set of pics. Thanks for posting.

I ran these shots past Wojtek Matusiak in Poland. He favours them being Mk I's with the DH prop and points out the the Airmen looking skyward are standing in front of a Hurricane with the Dowty prop and 'snubby' spinner.

He also offers 54 squadron among other possibilities.

The 18" wide tail band was introduced in late November 1940. These appear to be summer photos so we are looking at 1941 here. The tail band has been applied incorrectly being parallel to the tail break joint rather than perpendicular to the datum longeron and rivet lines - rare but seen before on an OTU aircraft. Now that the full tail fin is in view, this aircraft was most probably painted with the small fuselage serial applied at the top of the fuselage and over painted with the new tail band.

54 Squadron had in theory shed its Mk I's by February 1941 so more likely to be a IIa, if a 54 Squadron Spitfire.

Here is a 54 Squadron Mk II P7666. All Units applied codes differently but note the position of 'K' here would be totally obscured with the door open and would match the colour images.

Colour photographs of British aircraft in WWII at this time, pre 7th December 1941, are rare indeed. Super stuff...bring it on.

PeterA

[PeterA]

Pirated copies of presumably enhanced thumbnails being offered on ebay, I noted tonight!!

PeterA

[Randy Haskin]

without 'staged' pictures I would suggest that there would be fewer pics, not more.

Oh, absolutely, no argument. My issue, shall we say, isn't the original pics, or the original use, but modern specialist publications taking some really obviously posed high-cheese shot and captioning it 'Crew discussing their mission around the tailplane' - because the author/editor is too lazy to 'read' the picture properly.

That's still happening today. I had to be in several staged photos when I was interviewed by a Stars and Stripes reporter last year in Afghanistan.

[JDK]

without 'staged' pictures I would suggest that there would be fewer pics, not more.

That's still happening today. I had to be in several staged photos when I was interviewed by a Stars and Stripes reporter last year in Afghanistan.

I hope you got put in whatever the equivalent of the 'Line Book' is for the USAF. They were probably just grateful to avoid another 'person in front of a computer photo op'.

I don't think anyone is suggesting there aren't any 'posed' shots at all today - as ever the difference is between the poorly conceived and executed ones and the more 'credible' ones.

I'm lucky enough to work with a number of very skilled press photographers - there's a big difference between (watching) a good photographer who makes a picture that tells the story and a second rate photographer who goes for a stupid cliché - as above.

PS: Point to Wojtek as ever - I'd completely missed the Hurri.

[Mossie]

Blimey, those Mae Wests have seen better days

[PeterA]

These images have been whistling around the world and creating much interest.

I am advised by Zdenek Hurt in the the Czech Republic that the pilot on the far left in the Hurricane shot is F/Lt Edward J. 'Jumbo' Gracie.

Wearing F/Lt rings would suggest the timing of this shot as Summer 1940 as a Flight Commander of 56 Squadron. He was promoted to CO of 23 Squadron by March 1941.

PeterA

[Mossie]

F/Lt Edward J. 'Jumbo' Gracie flew with No 56 Squadron during the Battle. On the 10th of July 1940 his Hurricane was damaged in combat with some Bf 110's and he crash landed with a seized engine at Manston. He destroyed four enemy aircraft before the 8th of August 1940, and a further three before the 30th of August 1940. On the 30th of August 1940 he destroyed a Heinkel He 111 but was himself shot down at 16:45hrs, crash-landing his Hurricane I (R2689). He thought himself unhurt but next day discovered he had a broken neck, requiring admission to hospital! Gracie was awarded the D.F.C. on the 1st of October 1940. He scored six more kills flying from Malta. E.J.Gracie later flew Mosquito's on night escort for R.A.F. heavy bombers. E.J.Gracie was K.I.A. on the 15th of February 1944, aged 32.

http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=6180

I always find that when I'm reading a synopsis, like the one above. I get towards the end and I start thinking ' Oh great, it looks as though this guy survived the war'. And then on the last line I read the dreaded word KIA.