CAPFlyer wrote:
GilT wrote:
Suggest you look more closely at the Cessna 172 and Piper Cherokee series operating limitations, many PA-28 series (fixed gear) are approved for spins when flown as two place aircraft in Utility Category within CG limits, the same applies to 172s.
Tom,
I never said that spins weren't approved, I said they weren't spin certified. In the eyes of a lawyer or an insurance agent, those are two totally different things. It's also a different series of tests required. An example of a spin certified aircraft is a Diamond Katana where the aircraft can be spun at any weight and any permissible CG position or a Cessna 152 which has very little restriction to spins again as it is certified for spins. In addition, the conditions for a spin in the 172s and PA28s is so restrictive (the book is very clear that you're not supposed to do more than one rotation) that there is little point in doing them even if you can get insurance approval to operate the aircraft for spin training since the single rotation spin typically doesn't give a pilot enough experience into what a spin is and how to deal with it. A spin in a highly controlled, low weight situation behaves totally different from a spin with a much heavier payload where the dangerous spins typically occur.
At my last two Part-141 schools, the insurance agency prohibited spins in any aircraft not Certified for spins. It was made clear that Certified meant Certified, not Approved. In addition, the Part 61 school that I used to rent planes from also had an insurance policy that prohibited spins in non-Certified aircraft. It was part of the "fine print" when you signed the waiver.
Might you educate me on how a plane becomes "certified" for spins, I have never seen such a certification? I'm rather familiar with both CAR 3 and Part 23 spin recovery requirements and have never heard of a different requirement for certified vs. approved????????
The 150 and the 152 are certified under the same Type Certificate (Utility Category) they are both approved for spins using the same wording. A Citabria is certified in the Aerobatic Category, it is further APPROVED for only those manuvers listed, the approved manuvers will be listed in the Operations Limitations, APPROVED placards or manuals. The Cessna and Piper models noted earlier are certified in either Normal or Utility Category dependent on how many seats are occupied and CG, they are further approved for manuvers listed in approved data.
When the Cessna 150 was originally certified (1958) spins were required and were classed as an aerobatic manuver parachutes were required so the high back 150s had a lower seat pan for a seat pack chute. When the FAA changed the regs to only require spin training for CFI students they also gave us relief from the parachute requirement by stating that chutes were not required when giving spin training as part of a CFI program. Were you in a CFI program or wearing a chute when you got your Katana spin training?
I certainly concur that there are big differences in spin recovery between aircraft with light wing loadings and benign stalls and those with heavy wing loadings and sharp stall breaks but doubt that there is a significant difference between the Katana and a 150/152/172 or Cherokee, trust me they all spin fine. There is one CG limitation that is usually overlooked in a Cherokee 140, fuel can not be above the tabs to be within Utility Category CG range.
Tom-
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