'Skywarriors' Simulated Air Combat - what happened??

[Dave Downs]

In another thread I mentioned flying with 'Skywarriors' out of Atlanta, GA. in simulated Air Combat Manuvering. I flew with them on 3 seperate occaisions, and found them to be a first-class operation; in fact they were written-up in many aviation magazines, and had won awards for maintainance.

When one of their aircraft lost a wing during manuevering it cast doubt on the structural integrity of the whole T-34 fleet, and I believe a second structural failure by another operation of the same type resulted in the gounding of the whole fleet. I've read everything I could find on the incidents, but could never find anything on the firm itself, or what happened in the aftermath. Even though we signed 'hold-harmless' waivers I'm sure lawsuits were filed. Does anyone know what happened?
They were good guys in my opinion; I learned alot about flying in the 3 flights I had with them.......and was greatly humbled at the same time.

Side notes:

I have a picture of the accident aircraft inverted with me in the front seat.

After my first flight, I was telling of my adventure at my home airport during a hanger-flying session. When I mentioned that I pulled enough 'G's to grey-out an old P-51 pilot became concerned. He stated that those airplanes were old, had probably been abused in training flights and should not be subjected to continuos 'G' loads.
...........Prophetic

[LadyO2Pilot]

Dave, I can't speak to the Atlanta operation; however, the second structural failure IIRC occurred at Texas Air Aces, Tomball, TX in Nov 2003 killing the President Don Wylie and a client. They also had a second similar failure in Dec 2004 killing both occupants. This aircraft had been scheduled to have the AD done but hadn't and there was some question at the time as to whether it was advertised as having been done. Here again sketchy memory. Texas Air Aces was effectively closed down for a awhile after this second crash. But I believe the companion company Aviation Safety is now operating again at Hooks with Don Wylie's son, Steven at the helm.......but this may be disproven....here again CRS.

Just as an aside, their T-34s used to do all their manuevers over my former home on Lake Conroe and parts of the second crash landed about 1-1.5 mile from that house if I was told correctly. I still owned the house but was splitting time between Conroe and San Antonio at the time.

Last edited by LadyO2Pilot on Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[DB2]

I believe Don Wylie's crash was in 2003.

I once watched a friend in a Pitts "tangle" with one of them over Sack-o-grande (former grass strip on Houston's west side) . I could not believe how hard they were pulling that T-34 around.

[LadyO2Pilot]

That's correct....it was Nov 2003....typo on my part and I have edited original to reflect correct info...sorry

[Kyleb]

In another thread I mentioned flying with 'Skywarriors' out of Atlanta, GA. in simulated Air Combat Manuvering. I flew with them on 3 seperate occaisions, and found them to be a first-class operation; in fact they were written-up in many aviation magazines, and had won awards for maintainance.

When one of their aircraft lost a wing during manuevering it cast doubt on the structural integrity of the whole T-34 fleet, and I believe a second structural failure by another operation of the same type resulted in the gounding of the whole fleet. I've read everything I could find on the incidents, but could never find anything on the firm itself, or what happened in the aftermath. Even though we signed 'hold-harmless' waivers I'm sure lawsuits were filed. Does anyone know what happened?
They were good guys in my opinion; I learned alot about flying in the 3 flights I had with them.......and was greatly humbled at the same time.

Side notes:

I have a picture of the accident aircraft inverted with me in the front seat.

After my first flight, I was telling of my adventure at my home airport during a hanger-flying session. When I mentioned that I pulled enough 'G's to grey-out an old P-51 pilot became concerned. He stated that those airplanes were old, had probably been abused in training flights and should not be subjected to continuos 'G' loads.
...........Prophetic

If you're asking about what happened in the legal system, I don't know.

From my conversations with people who were associated with the Skywarriors, the operation closed immediately after the crash, which was your classic case of over stressing the aircraft to failure. The word was that some of the backseaters didn't do a good job of enforcing the ROE regarding speed, G's, etc, and it caught up with one of them and his passenger/customer.

I remember watching the Skywarriors perform their simulated dogfights from my backyard. On a clear day it was very entertaining.

[Bill Greenwood]

Dave, while I don't have the accident report in front of me from the Atlanta group, I would say you were very lucky. I am fairly sure that the report was basically pilot error, that they overstressed the planes, AND MAY have done it repeatedly. A factory T-34 is pretty strong, you are allowed 6 g s positive, Not sure, but I recall 3 neg? Anyway, for normal acro like Julie Clark 6 gs is more than ample. I used to do loops at 3 1/2 g s. But there are two realms you can overstress. First is turning g s as opposed to a straight pull. If you are turning and banking then pull 6 g s, then the wing that is doing the turn lift, the top wing, is getting more than 6 g s. The other way is to exceed the redline speed, while manuevering . This speed was 243 knots on my A model, then an AD was issued lowering it to 220 knots?, I think. The 34 is not all that clean, but it is no 172 and you could get it over redline VNE.

I think the Texas case was pretty much the same, over g on the plane. I am told there are even cockpit voice tapes where they joke about being over g in flight. I have not heard them, but I have read the accident report. The FAA made a case about fatigue in the wing structure, but as for as I know inspections did not find major serious cracks in planes except those abused in air combat operations. There were some small, less serious cracks found in a few other planes.

I was at Hooks and spoke to Don Wylie and came close to flying with him, so I am perhaps lucky also. I didn't go because his partner was a real obnoxious type, and it was very expensive. Don himself was very nice, polite, even after I declined to go. By the way, at Sun N Fun a few months before the accident the Atlanta guys did a donated flight with Mario Andretti and a lady ultralight pilot that won a raffle.

[PbyCat-Guy]

Oooops! Thought that it was about the Douglas A-3 Skywarriors. My dad was a VQ-2er on A-3D (All 3 Dead-no ejection seats).

[hang the expense]

There is a reason they are called spam cans.

[DB2]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe the first Houston accident was due to a forward spar failure, and the second was due to a rear spar failure (and no rear spars had failed before that accident). In fact, the second accident aircraft may have been refitted with a Baron forward spar???

Regardless, from what I saw they certainly were not afraid to put the aircraft in high G situations, especially in turning manuvers as Bill noted.

[Randy Haskin]

Asymmetric G is a huge, huge issue.

Seems that many people who go out 'dogfighting' in their aircraft don't realize that there is such a thing as a 'rolling G' limit. Even worse, they aren't aware that limit is down around 50% of the symmetric G limits!

[Tinker51]

I seem to recall reading several articles regarding the T-38 and F-5 airframes and the problems of asymmetric G loading. Don't recall if the fix was modifications, better training, increased limitations or increased inspection intervals. More than likely that all four played a part.

[gunnyperdue]

I was involved in the accident investigation of the Skywarrior accident in a peripheral manner. The plain truth of it is that the Skywarrior folks over-stressed their T-34's asymmetrically on the order of 6 times or more per flight.... for 4000 hours.

The Dash-1 points out a rolling G limitation of 2/3'ds allowable (usually 6 G... making 4G the limit for a rolling pull... there is evidence that at least one of the TAA accidents occurred with over 10 G being pulled) and of all the T-34 pilots I interviewed none could cite that limitation. The tape from the cockpit confirms that the rolling g over-stress was the factor that induced fatigue. The rear bathtub fitting actually failed causing the wing to collapse.

The TWO T-34 crashes experienced by Texas Air Aces were both ex-Skywarrior aircraft... neither had the AD complied with, although at least one of them had been pencil whipped. Apparently Texas Air Aces flaunted the restrictions on the airplane... and it garnered a much worse reputation than needed. It is an incredible airplane to survive over 4000 asymmetric over-g situations.

The short answer is fly the airplane within it's limits... and the original poster was indeed lucky.

My two cents.... your mileage may vary...

gunny

[Dave Downs]

Thanks for all the replies -

And I first heard of 'rolling G' after this accident

[Bill Greenwood]

I feel like someone who stood on the Southampton dock and said farewell as the Titanic pulled out. I was in Las Vegas as part of the CAF group flying the show at Nellis, intense, but good fun. After the show I overnighted at N. Las Vegas where they had a business doing simulated air combat, I recall in SF 260s. I talked to them, but never went flying. One big reason was cost, but underneath that I just did not get the right feeling for it when I talked to them. There was an awful lot of rpm per manifold pressure if you know what I mean, with the flight suits, helmets and the code names for each other. The pilots were Guard F-16 guys and probably were good. I also felt like I might get airsick. Years later they had a fatal, I think that one may have been a midair.

I was at Sun N Fun as the Skywariors gave the briefing to Mario Andretti and the lady pilot. I recall Mario looking rather concerned when it came to the part about the parachute. The lady was raring to go, and I'm really glad that flight was safe. Months later the first T-34 fatal occurred.

The I stopped at Hooks. As I walked up to the planes sitting out on the ramp, the partner almost attacked me, screaming, don't touch those planes. These were average 34s at best, no show winners, and they were out on the ramp. I never did get why this guy was such a bum, but then Don Wylie came out and was just the opposite, very nice. I still have the intro videotape he showed me. I liked guy, I am sorry he was lost. Doesn't mean I buy everything he had to say, but I liked him. He had a friendly Type A manner, I think he would have been a great car salesman. I know we talked about the spar AD, and I recall him saying they either had installed or would intall the universal one that the Baron uses. Apparently it was not in the accident plane, don't know if that would have made any difference. I didn't fly with them, the price was high and I didn't want to give the other guy any money, but I came close. Maybe that was my lucky day.

I have only done some tailchase in the Spitfire vs P-51s, nothing real hard or jerky. The Spit manual gives 9g positive and 6 neg, and the Mustang is close, I think 8. I'd be well asleep if we got near the limit.