Dressing up at airshows

[Robbie Roberts]

being jewish i have always questioned why anybody would want to portray or wear an ss uniform at an air show or military history gathering. it makes me wonder what lurks in the back of their heads.

I'm equally as bothered as the people who what to make that all go away and pretend it does not exist.

Recently I visited a museum in Munich that had a substantial aircraft collection....except it seemed to largely ignore that the years 1939-1944 ever existed. The Bf-109 and Me-262 displayed without Swastikas smacked of revisionist history to me.

So what if the Reich stood for evil and committed immense cruelty during its reign....it happened, regardless. Pretending it didn't by hiding the symbols of its existance doesn't help us "never forget".

Displaying the swastika in Germany- even in a historical context such as a restored aircraft, is ILLEGAL under German law. It is not revisionist in that way- they are not trying to deny/hide that the period happened with their aircraft, just trying to keep them legal. I believe it is also illegal in Austria, for the same reason.

Robbie

[JDK]

being jewish i have always questioned why anybody would want to portray or wear an ss uniform at an air show or military history gathering. it makes me wonder what lurks in the back of their heads.

I'm equally as bothered as the people who what to make that all go away and pretend it does not exist.

Recently I visited a museum in Munich that had a substantial aircraft collection....except it seemed to largely ignore that the years 1939-1944 ever existed. The Bf-109 and Me-262 displayed without Swastikas smacked of revisionist history to me.

So what if the Reich stood for evil and committed immense cruelty during its reign....it happened, regardless. Pretending it didn't by hiding the symbols of its existance doesn't help us "never forget".

That was the German Technical Museum, Randy? I visited last year, particularly with interest in their 'what about W.W.II' bit. I take your point, but also -

To be fair, there's a bit more historical context to the German public display on W.W.II - d@mned if they do, d@mned if they don't show the W.W.II era. I don't think it's so much a lack of will to address the issue, more that it is such a contentious arena there simply isn't the consensus to do so, yet. Bearing in mind the fuss over the Enola Gay displays in the US, imagine what that kind of argument would be like if the US had lost the war and other countries were adding their victorious views? (NB: This is JUST a comparative exercise, and isn't anything to do with restrictions on freedom of speech, or fascism or their criteria.)

Incidentally the Munich collection is an excellent technical display of W.W.II era hardware, and a) must be seen in conjunction with the outstation at Oberslissheim (sp) and b) with the fact that most of the W.W.II era aircraft are imports (many in their donor countries colours) due to the original museum in Berlin being bombed to waste, destroying the Dornier Do X among others, and the rest of the collection being lost or sent to Poland (where much of it still is) and c) that the museum is a science and technology museum, not a war museum.

I think most Germans are very aware of W.W.II and their role in it - better than most citizens of the victorious nations or the Japanese, certainly. The Germans went through a 'hair shirt' history, particularly in Eastern Germany, and some of the overbearing nature of some of these proscriptions have fed the modern German fascist movements recruitment.

Oh, and the British are always reminding them, as you'll find if you travel in the UK with a German. Not a nice experience.

Displaying the swastika in Germany- even in a historical context such as a restored aircraft, is ILLEGAL under German law. It is not revisionist in that way- they are not trying to deny/hide that the period happened with their aircraft, just trying to keep them legal. I believe it is also illegal in Austria, for the same reason.

Not quite true. German registered airworthy aircraft certainly can't. Museum aircraft can, and elsewhere to the Munich German Science Museum, there are aircraft on display that do have swastikas on the tail - all recent (last decade or so) restorations, I think. However, my guess is that these restorations date to the period when putting a swastika on a museum aircraft was either illegal or impolitic. Now, of course, they're in a double bind - they get castigated for leaving them off (by Randy!) and would get a hammering for putting them on (endorsing / resurrecting Nazism etc.)
Interesting thread, and I like Mustangdriver's point!
Cheers

[tom d. friedman]

wow, thanks for all the quotes boys!! as to the swastika, i'm all for historical accuracy right down to that ultimate symbol of hate. heck, they don't even put the swastika on model aircraft made in europe!! it's a touchy issue. on vehicals, planes, historical objects where warranted do it 100 % correct. but as i stated, when a person don's a uniform of the ss, something made him want to do it, & i cringe at what that could be. my brother's mother in law now 88, wears a tattoo of her number on her arm while she was interned at bergen - belsen death camp. it must be like a daily haunting for her to have had to look at that thing all these years

[JDK]

Thanks for the feedback Tom.

my brother's mother in law now 88, wears a tattoo of her number on her arm while she was interned at bergen - belsen death camp. it must be like a daily haunting for her to have had to look at that thing all these years

That's hard. But you can look at it as a victory over those that put it there that she's here and they aren't.

'The best revenge is living well'.

[EDowning]

As far as "dressing up" I subscribe to the "to each their own" theory. It's not my bag, but its fine if someone wants to do it.

I would like to point out a different point of view regarding flying these airplanes. As a veteran, I have tremendous respect for the sacrifices (both peace time and combat) made by other veterans. I don't, however, claim to fly these airplanes to honor or as tribute to any group of veterans.
I own and fly them because it's challenging and fun.

Meeting the veterans is just a very gratifying side benefit of participating.

Full disclosure.

[RyanShort1]

Tom,

First off I do NOT sympathize with anyone who advocates any form of anti-semitism. However, I do have a different perspective on SOME of the guys who wear the uniforms.

Here are some more of my (and my sister's) pictures. These are from our "Mediterranean Assault" event two Decembers ago. The first picture is what I like to do when I don't get to fly - stay with the L-birds and tell stories from their history, and educate the public about a forgotten bit of the war.


A uniform, or different style of clothing is very helpful to let folks know you are there with the aircraft - and if it happens to be period correct, even better.


This second picture is my unique bird's-eye view of the event - from the L-bird that was the "spotter" during the "battle." We put together a pretty decent living history program with a generic battle run twice during the day. The crowd could've been a LOT bigger, but we were happy with what we got, and didn't lose money on the deal!

Let me introduce you to some of the guys from "G" Company.

G Company is a group that does reenactments or living history events for educational purposes primarily. Unlike a lot of other groups, who mainly enjoy playing war several weekends a year, they really put their heart and soul into teaching history - in fact a number of the guys in the group are educators. They do include some guys who portray Germans - including evil SS guys in their group, but none are dedicated to the German cause.

One of the best things about this group is that they TEACH!



Often they spend twice as long (or more!) on an interactive demonstration and history lesson as they do on the actual battle.




It was really neat to see how these guys grabbed and kept the crowd's (and we had some school children out, too!) attention while they taught.


That does include the Germans as well...

Of course, what everyone really wanted to see was the battle, complete with pyrotechnics - but which was carefully planned and briefed to demonstrate specific things which they'd previously talked about.


Convoy ambushed


Convoy under fire


Artillery called in from spotter plane


And eventually the "good guys" swept the field

Anyways...


Our battle would not have been complete without these guys...


Who we did make sure "lost" in the end!

I guess my point is that some of the guys wearing SS or other German uniforms aren't doing so with evil intent. Some of them also may not be at an event such as this, but promoting their living history group that does events like this at other times. My encouragement is to talk to them and find out why they're doing what they're doing. If they are BAD dudes, let them know how you feel - we'd just as soon not have to deal with them either. If they're just having fun playing war or actually teaching history - treat them accordingly.

Well, I guess I've said and shown too much. If you want to see more of what the event was like, see: http://picasaweb.google.com/historicbattles/ Just please don't use the pictures for anything without permission.

Ryan

[RyanShort1]

Oh, one more thing. The first battle of the day I was the spotter pilot. Loved it and really enjoyed getting to fly in a "realistic" (yeah right!) situation. Due to a technical glitch (very serious involving explosives and communications!) I was grounded by the reenactors for the second battle and they made me their ground comm guy while somebody else flew. It was quite funny to me that I actually felt more useful on the ground than flying circles and jinking around up in the air (trying to avoid flak). And it was really neat to hear the guys talk and hear what they thought they were doing. I'd probably do it with them again if given the opportunity (I don't spend big bucks on the gear).

Sorry for going on about this.

Ryan

[JDK]

Sorry for going on about this.

No, great posts Ryan. As soon as we've got the Polka Dot Police sorting E 'Serials' Downing out, for admitting he was having 'fun' (shock, horror) you can use the SPAD too!

[EDowning]

JDK wrote:

No, great posts Ryan. As soon as we've got the Polka Dot Police sorting E 'Serials' Downing out, for admitting he was having 'fun' (shock, horror) you can use the SPAD too!

You gotta admit, seldom does anyone list that as their primary reason for being involved.

Truth be told, the real reason I choose the SPAD was that I figured something that size surely had to have the most parts, more parts mean more serial numbers, which means more numbers for me to hoard and keep from the evil anoraks. See, there is a reason for everything.

[Ztex]

Serial Numbers... : Shock: Eric...I think you are twisted..and that's OK by me!



So Mudge...how do you feel about all those Yankees at Gettysburg on the Fourth of July? (you live south of the line...barely)

As to the German reenactors...somebody has to be the Indians...

I have a bunch of WWII German, Nazi, medals hanging on the wall in a little display case. A friend of mine came over and was SHOCKED that I had that EVIL stuff in my house.

I responded with something like .... to the victors go the spoils...War trophies...and such. He was somewhat understanding.

History is what it is...dressing up as the bad guy does not make one a bad guy.

[tom d. friedman]

ryan, you make valid points, but i didn't mean or intend to label anybody as psycho anti semite / racist who re-enacts as an ss trooper. it just makes me think why would anybody want to portray something so hateful. i went to a halloween party once, & here is a guy dressed in gestapo regalia!!! happy halloween!!! glad i didn't drunk that night!!! my apologies if i peeved you.

[Robbie Roberts]

ryan, you make valid points, but i didn't mean or intend to label anybody as psycho anti semite / racist who re-enacts as an ss trooper. it just makes me think why would anybody want to portray something so hateful. i went to a halloween party once, & here is a guy dressed in gestapo regalia!!! happy halloween!!! glad i didn't drunk that night!!! my apologies if i peeved you.

You didn't tell us you knew Prince Harry! Or was it his brother/

lol...

Robbie

[Ryan Keough]

Truth be told, the real reason I choose the SPAD was that I figured something that size surely had to have the most parts, more parts mean more serial numbers, which means more numbers for me to hoard and keep from the evil anoraks. See, there is a reason for everything.

Good time to bring this back...

[EDowning]

Ryan wrote:

Good time to bring this back...

A classic, second only to this, oldie but goodie

Some people even dress up as Amish.

[flyingheritage]