iran has 4 flyable f-14 tomcats??

[RyanShort1]

...probability is close to zero that they could fight for more than 1 minute....

"There's no way fighters will need guns anymore. The guided missle is the wave of the future; dogfighting is dead"

e: Notwithstanding the fact that a war with Iran is extremely unlikely at this point.

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

At least on the web a number of sources indicate that the Russians or Chinese may have worked with Iran to put new systems into the aircraft including missile capabilities. Also, there do seem to be indications that the Iranians are capable of manufacturing at least some of the parts. Frankly, I suspect that most Americans underestimate their capability. I think Randy's got it right.

Ryan

[Malo83]

...probability is close to zero that they could fight for more than 1 minute....

"There's no way fighters will need guns anymore. The guided missle is the wave of the future; dogfighting is dead"

e: Notwithstanding the fact that a war with Iran is extremely unlikely at this point.

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

At least on the web a number of sources indicate that the Russians or Chinese may have worked with Iran to put new systems into the aircraft including missile capabilities. Also, there do seem to be indications that the Iranians are capable of manufacturing at least some of the parts. Frankly, I suspect that most Americans underestimate their capability. I think Randy's got it right.

Amen

Ryan

[Rauhbatz]

A reliable source I know (former Iran F-14 pilot) says they are being used as fast Awacs birds. At this time the most valuable portion of the F-14s to Iran is the radar to spot potential intruders.

I know there are two less F-14s than the list posted here. He had to eject twice due to airframe failure.

[Randy Haskin]

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

Okay, to get the story closer to correct, contract workers from Hughes (the maker of the AWG-9 radar in the F-14A) are reported to have smashed as many AWG-9 circuit cards as they could in the jets/radars that they had access to. This took place in a very short period of time after the fall of the Shah and before they had to leave the country.

Nobody seems to know publicly how many cards were smashed, to what degree they were destroyed, or how many jets had cards destroyed from them.

Any reasonably technologically advanced country could easily re-engineer such circuit cards.

In no way does the story mean that the airplanes have "no systems" or "no way to survive in combat".

It is very hard to figure out just what Iran has or does not have. They engage in a lot of propaganda and disinformation.

Very, very true. Best words yet spoken on the subject. Even the "experts" here on the interweb are subject to such unknowns.

Sometime in the 1980s the CIA arranged for a Tomcat and two Phantoms to defect to Iraq. The Tomcat and one Phantom flew on to Saudi Arabia to be inspected. One Phantom was so unsafe the American pilots wouldn't fly it and it remained there until it was destroyed in the American attacks in 2003. There were photos on the web.

So...the Phantom was in Saudi Arabia....and it was destroyed in "American attacks in 2003"? I was part of the opening salvo of Shock and Awe in 2003, and we didn't bomb Saudi Arabia. Am I missing something here?

I have heard that the latest F-18 pilots found fighting against the Tomcat akin to clubbing baby seals.

Depends on the scenario. I have gunned F-15s from a T-38 before, and it was as easy as seal clubbing, too. I have both wiped the floor with a Tomcat, and been the subject of such a floor-wiping at the hands of another Tomcat.

Here is what I posted on the subject a couple years ago:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=14172

When I was a brand-new F-15E pilot, I had the opportuity to fly against an F-14A in a 1 v 1. I was surprisingly able to kick the snot out of him. Three years later, I had a similar 1 v 1 opportunity against an F-14D -- this time I was the one getting the crap beat out of him. IMHO, the D Model Tomcat is a pretty good fighter -- good engines and good radar -- that still suffers from some of the limitations of the Tomcat airframe (like numbers of places to hang ordnance, where the targeting pod is mounted, overall G limit, etc). It didn't carry the AMRAAM (the A model), so it suffered in the medium range BVR arena significantly (don't let the Phoenix fanboys convince you otherwise...).

I would NEVER underestimate anyone I was fighting, including an F-14A, because you can get the tar beat outta you by darn near any piece of equipment, depending on what the scenario is and who is flying it....

When I flew AT-38s, you would not believe the number of times I "killed" F-16s and F-15s in air-to-air engagements, even though I had no radar and no medium-range missile capability. Why? The T-38 is small visually and has a small radar cross section. If you can slip in un-noticed and turn the battle into a gunfight at close range, the odds change significantly. Even better, if you can get into a shot position WITHOUT BEING SEEN, you're in REALLY good shape, and that's what happened most times with the AT-38.

Summary of my opinion on Iranian F-14s, and the tendency that some Americans -- none of whom will ever be called to actually fight one of them -- have to completely discount them as US-jet-fodder. It's pretty darn easy to have such bravado when you will never have to put your own pink American body at risk against one.

I am never prone to just scoffing a potential enemy outright because he is not a technologically advanced. That was a mistake we made with the North Vietnamese, and you can see how that worked out for us.

If anyone wants to beat their chest and think that it would be a cakewalk to just roll into Iran and eliminate their Air Force in the first day, they're entitled to that opinion. I happen to think that's a pretty ignorant opinion, though.

Would the US win militarily against Iran? No doubt in my mind. Would it be a cakewalk? I dunno...why don't you go ask some Desert Storm vets if the Iraqi Air Force was a pushover in 1991. Although the US did not have any confirmed air-air losses (Scott Speicher, perhaps), I'll bet you a case of Heineken that every pilot that shot down an Iraqi had a pulse going through the roof and was playing his top A game....he wasn't just relaxing, smoking a Lucky, and saying "awww, these Iraqis are a bunch of Amateurs." Same goes for Operation Allied Force, where F-15Cs bagged a few more MiGs. Were the Serbians a bunch of Clowns? Yes...but the US pilots flew as if they were going up against the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.

Listen to the recording of "Dirk" flight that is available for download here on the Internet...it's the two F-15Cs that shot down two MiG-29s in Allied Force. All you have to do is listen to the tone of the pilots' voices over the radio to know that they are operating at a very high level and are....well, scared isn't the right word. Perhaps anxious is a better word.

Anyway, if something bad happens and the US finds itself poised to take up arms against Iran in the next couple years, I will probably be there. I won't be thinking to myself, "Aww, these punks are just armed with a couple dilapidated Tomcats and some old Phantoms and MiGs and stuff. What a friggin' cake walk."

No, I'll be "anxious". Probably even scared, because you never know when an enemy -- even one who is not as well trained or equipped -- could whip out a sucker punch that could send me home to my family in a flag-draped casket.

You simply HAVE to respect your enemies until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. Otherwise, your pride will be your downfall.

[A2C]

It's a mute point, because they have MiG 29's too. Mig 29 is probably way better than F-14A.

[Warren_C]

I am surprised that nobody has commented on the F-14s flying in the video are making the fly past with the glove vanes extended. Our A models had the glove vanes rendered inop back in the mid-80s. If I remember correctly this design feature was omitted from the subsequent D model. One would think a smart adversary would always be watching for any configuration change to any fleet type they operate, then scrambling to understand the cause and effect of the change. This little detail leads me to believe that this is old reused footage.

Another notable point, when the existing supply chain has been cut off, where would you go to get the thousands of consumable parts specific to this fleet type, some have a short shelf life or short TBO. How many unique o-rings, screws, bolts, washers, fuel filters, etc…hard to start a TF-30-P414A, without good igniter plugs, or exciter box. Just can’t run down to NAPA and get a replacement motive flow pump or an AB fuel control.

Then there are the little mundane things like FOD, which is an equal opportunity engine killer every military knows, not a big deal for us, just pull the engine de-Q it and send it off to AIMD, put another engine back in go fly. Even with our endless supply of parts, our squadron only managed 124 days FOD free, then, we got to reset the counter. Now picture 30 operational yrs in a desert environment with no endless supply. Better be real thorough with that FOD walk, and better check that tool belt twice.

Just some thoughts

[mustangdriver]

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

Okay, to get the story closer to correct, contract workers from Hughes (the maker of the AWG-9 radar in the F-14A) are reported to have smashed as many AWG-9 circuit cards as they could in the jets/radars that they had access to. This took place in a very short period of time after the fall of the Shah and before they had to leave the country.

Nobody seems to know publicly how many cards were smashed, to what degree they were destroyed, or how many jets had cards destroyed from them.

Any reasonably technologically advanced country could easily re-engineer such circuit cards.

In no way does the story mean that the airplanes have "no systems" or "no way to survive in combat".

It is very hard to figure out just what Iran has or does not have. They engage in a lot of propaganda and disinformation.

Very, very true. Best words yet spoken on the subject. Even the "experts" here on the interweb are subject to such unknowns.

Sometime in the 1980s the CIA arranged for a Tomcat and two Phantoms to defect to Iraq. The Tomcat and one Phantom flew on to Saudi Arabia to be inspected. One Phantom was so unsafe the American pilots wouldn't fly it and it remained there until it was destroyed in the American attacks in 2003. There were photos on the web.

So...the Phantom was in Saudi Arabia....and it was destroyed in "American attacks in 2003"? I was part of the opening salvo of Shock and Awe in 2003, and we didn't bomb Saudi Arabia. Am I missing something here?

I have heard that the latest F-18 pilots found fighting against the Tomcat akin to clubbing baby seals.

Depends on the scenario. I have gunned F-15s from a T-38 before, and it was as easy as seal clubbing, too. I have both wiped the floor with a Tomcat, and been the subject of such a floor-wiping at the hands of another Tomcat.

Here is what I posted on the subject a couple years ago:

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/p ... hp?t=14172

When I was a brand-new F-15E pilot, I had the opportuity to fly against an F-14A in a 1 v 1. I was surprisingly able to kick the snot out of him. Three years later, I had a similar 1 v 1 opportunity against an F-14D -- this time I was the one getting the crap beat out of him. IMHO, the D Model Tomcat is a pretty good fighter -- good engines and good radar -- that still suffers from some of the limitations of the Tomcat airframe (like numbers of places to hang ordnance, where the targeting pod is mounted, overall G limit, etc). It didn't carry the AMRAAM (the A model), so it suffered in the medium range BVR arena significantly (don't let the Phoenix fanboys convince you otherwise...).

I would NEVER underestimate anyone I was fighting, including an F-14A, because you can get the tar beat outta you by darn near any piece of equipment, depending on what the scenario is and who is flying it....

When I flew AT-38s, you would not believe the number of times I "killed" F-16s and F-15s in air-to-air engagements, even though I had no radar and no medium-range missile capability. Why? The T-38 is small visually and has a small radar cross section. If you can slip in un-noticed and turn the battle into a gunfight at close range, the odds change significantly. Even better, if you can get into a shot position WITHOUT BEING SEEN, you're in REALLY good shape, and that's what happened most times with the AT-38.

Summary of my opinion on Iranian F-14s, and the tendency that some Americans -- none of whom will ever be called to actually fight one of them -- have to completely discount them as US-jet-fodder. It's pretty darn easy to have such bravado when you will never have to put your own pink American body at risk against one.

I am never prone to just scoffing a potential enemy outright because he is not a technologically advanced. That was a mistake we made with the North Vietnamese, and you can see how that worked out for us.

If anyone wants to beat their chest and think that it would be a cakewalk to just roll into Iran and eliminate their Air Force in the first day, they're entitled to that opinion. I happen to think that's a pretty ignorant opinion, though.

Would the US win militarily against Iran? No doubt in my mind. Would it be a cakewalk? I dunno...why don't you go ask some Desert Storm vets if the Iraqi Air Force was a pushover in 1991. Although the US did not have any confirmed air-air losses (Scott Speicher, perhaps), I'll bet you a case of Heineken that every pilot that shot down an Iraqi had a pulse going through the roof and was playing his top A game....he wasn't just relaxing, smoking a Lucky, and saying "awww, these Iraqis are a bunch of Amateurs." Same goes for Operation Allied Force, where F-15Cs bagged a few more MiGs. Were the Serbians a bunch of Clowns? Yes...but the US pilots flew as if they were going up against the best MiG-29 pilots in the world.

Listen to the recording of "Dirk" flight that is available for download here on the Internet...it's the two F-15Cs that shot down two MiG-29s in Allied Force. All you have to do is listen to the tone of the pilots' voices over the radio to know that they are operating at a very high level and are....well, scared isn't the right word. Perhaps anxious is a better word.

Anyway, if something bad happens and the US finds itself poised to take up arms against Iran in the next couple years, I will probably be there. I won't be thinking to myself, "Aww, these punks are just armed with a couple dilapidated Tomcats and some old Phantoms and MiGs and stuff. What a friggin' cake walk."

No, I'll be "anxious". Probably even scared, because you never know when an enemy -- even one who is not as well trained or equipped -- could whip out a sucker punch that could send me home to my family in a flag-draped casket.

You simply HAVE to respect your enemies until they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. Otherwise, your pride will be your downfall.

Randy I agree 100% And thank you for putting your butt on the line every day for the freedom I enjoy.

Last edited by mustangdriver on Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[A2C]

Interesting thoughts:

As far as I know the glove vanes were used to slow the plane down from supersonic or high speed flight. No idea why Grumman would change it.

The engines wouldn't be a problem, because Russian engineers could probably custom fit a Russian substitute.

[marine air]

Back in the 1980's "Captain Midnight" used to do an aerobatic routine in his Thunderbird painted T-33. Sometimes he would bring his old Air Force instructor buddy along. If he couldn't make the trip occasionally his friend would bringthe T-33, and his daughter Stacey (Strand).
Before "Captain Midnight" . aka Ray Mabry , died doing an aerobatic routine in his T-Bird, Stacey pretty much let it be known that her dad, Jerry Strand, was flying combat missions in the Iran-Iraq War. I confirmed this myself and with Ray, over a few six packs of beer.
IIRC, Jerry was a mercenary on the Iraq side but it could have been Iran. I hadn't thought about it in a long time. He may still live in the Minneapolis area and could tell you what was going on with the Iranians at least through their war with Iraq.
Since both sides had plenty of oil money, he said both sides were using former military pilots , etc. from the U.S. and elsewhere.

[P51Mstg]

Sorry guy, not MUTE its MOOT.....

Moot means it doesn't matter anymore.......

Hey SEAL CLUBBER (I couldn't resist that one Randy).

In your opinion, how would something (you pick the airplanes) do against an F22 in combat?


Mark H

[A2C]

Mute is fine too, because it means muted. That's exactly what it means to me, so I'll say it. I can use any adjective I want so long as it is in the dictionary, and it has a meaning. There you go.

[bdk]

Mute is fine too, because it means muted. That's exactly what it means to me, so I'll say it. I can use any adjective I want so long as it is in the dictionary, and it has a meaning. There you go.

Sorry, I'm the decider- the arbiter of adjectives. Next time anyone wants to use an adjective around here they better ask me first!

[RyanShort1]

Mute is fine too, because it means muted. That's exactly what it means to me, so I'll say it. I can use any adjective I want so long as it is in the dictionary, and it has a meaning. There you go.

Sorry, I'm the decider- the arbiter of adjectives. Next time anyone wants to use an adjective around here they better ask me first!

Great...

So BDK is the new grammar czar? I didn't ask...



Ryan

[tom d. friedman]

...probability is close to zero that they could fight for more than 1 minute....

"There's no way fighters will need guns anymore. The guided missle is the wave of the future; dogfighting is dead"

e: Notwithstanding the fact that a war with Iran is extremely unlikely at this point.

the missle systems were removed from those AC by the factroy techs that were in country servicing the planes when we got the iron boot....no systems = no way to survive in combat. (although I prefer guns myself)

i think both the new f-22 & f-35 do carry guns....... paging randy haskin

Last edited by tom d. friedman on Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

[jet1]

...no really!