Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:13 pm
Col. Rohr wrote:If I have offened you with this thread I'm sorry.
No, no offense taken whatsoever. I wasn't intentionally trying to be a big downer or anything and I realize that nobody's trying to glorify or make light of combat.
I was just looking at everyone's picks and thinking that, personally, I had no desire to bear witness to *any* of those events. I wanted to share a point of view that people probably hadn't given much consideration to. Peoples' idea of what combat may be like often wildly differs from reality, because it's just not possible to describe it to someone who hasn't been there.
Personally, I'd like to experience some of the aspects of these battles knowing I'd be perfectly safe -- I'd want to see and hear the flak in a B-17 on the way to Berlin; to maneuver into position behind a Bf-109 in a Spitfire over the Channel during the Battne of Britain and pull the trigger; to fly a Rolling Thunder mission in a F-105 or F-4 to Downtown Hanoi; to splash a MiG over Iraq in the first Gulf War.
Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:30 pm
A TBD at Coral Sea.
An F4-F at Midway.
A Hurricane at Malta.
An F4-F at Midway.
A Hurricane at Malta.
Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:03 pm
A Hurribomber over Malta! That mission was a near shore ticket home! I am still puzled how Malta held out.
Randy, I would agree with you about not wanting to go into combat. I was in school with a lot of friends who's fathers or others were in the Gulf war in 1991. We heard a B-52 from the local base was down and the school was just held in fear if the crew was one of ours, it was not.
We should in our desire develope these missions in full imersion VR. Then you can experiance it, but then walk away. A great teaching tool for future generations.
Randy, I would agree with you about not wanting to go into combat. I was in school with a lot of friends who's fathers or others were in the Gulf war in 1991. We heard a B-52 from the local base was down and the school was just held in fear if the crew was one of ours, it was not.
We should in our desire develope these missions in full imersion VR. Then you can experiance it, but then walk away. A great teaching tool for future generations.
Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:44 pm
B-24WillowRun wrote:We should in our desire develope these missions in full imersion VR. Then you can experiance it, but then walk away. A great teaching tool for future generations.
I agree, even the pseudo-sims we have now can be useful. I play Battlefield 1942/Desert Combat/Vietnam, and while not the most realistic sims I've seen they are enough to make me never want to goto war and makes me respect those who do even more.
Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:09 am
This is developing into an interesting thread as on one hand, we have those that have an interest in military history with little or no first hand military experience (I am guessing that this covers the majority of us here??) and wondering what it would be like to be 'under fire' and how we would react in such circumstances!
I know that I have often thought of this, wondering what it would be like to have been at the Somme on 01 July 1916, at Messines when the mines were blown on 7 June 1917 and the mud fields of Passchendale during WW1, what it would be like to have flown on 15 Sept 1940, to have taken part the Dambusters raid, what it would have been like, to have been on the end of the two 1000 plane bomber raids to Hamburg and Cologne and the battle at Hurtgen Forest to name a few.
On the other hand, we have those that have experienced combat, may possibly have seen sights that will live with them for the rest of their lives and would not want anybody else to experience the same.
My father is one of these, having served in the Royal Navy during 1940-46. He is happy to discuss certain areas of his service but steadfastly refuses to discuss any of the combat he experienced. Why, I am unsure and all I know is that he did one or two Convoy runs to Russia, a few Atlantic Convoy runs and was based at Scarborough.
Both my Grandfathers served during 1914-18 and fortunately both survived but my paternal Grandfather never spoke of his experiences to anybody. He was 97 when he died and from the end of the War until he died, he suffered from nightmares on an almost nightly basis and would regularly wake up bathed in sweat. Then 3 weeks before he died and for each meal, he insisted on setting two extra places (including wine glasses) at the dinner table and then proceeded to talk with his two friends that unfortunatley did not survive. In this 3 week period, not one nightmare??????
To some extent and while I do not use them, I imagine that computer sims can offer an insight into the 'experience' but what none of these programmes will do, is kill the 'player' like a 'live' enemy will do or what it will feel like to witness the loss of a best friend killed, so while it is possible to 'fly' a P-51, B-17, Bf109, or to take part in a land battle, it can never be a real simulation.
So, which viewpoint is right?
My personal point of view is both are right, because if someone is happy to sit down and talk to me about their experiences, I am happy to listen and learn but equally, if someone has trouble come to terms with their experiences, who am I to insist on making that person relive the horrors they experienced?
However what should be remembered is that as time moves on and survivers of all conflict dwindle, then what was learnt and experienced, WILL be fogotten and WILL be re-learnt the hard way.
Tony
PS
I am the first member of my family who has not served in the forces. This was not my choice but a direction that I was prevented from taking by my parents. As such, if anything that I have written, has been taken the wrong way, then I apologise now as this is really not intended, as I do appreciate what is done on my behalf even though I will never understand what has been or is being experienced.
I know that I have often thought of this, wondering what it would be like to have been at the Somme on 01 July 1916, at Messines when the mines were blown on 7 June 1917 and the mud fields of Passchendale during WW1, what it would be like to have flown on 15 Sept 1940, to have taken part the Dambusters raid, what it would have been like, to have been on the end of the two 1000 plane bomber raids to Hamburg and Cologne and the battle at Hurtgen Forest to name a few.
On the other hand, we have those that have experienced combat, may possibly have seen sights that will live with them for the rest of their lives and would not want anybody else to experience the same.
My father is one of these, having served in the Royal Navy during 1940-46. He is happy to discuss certain areas of his service but steadfastly refuses to discuss any of the combat he experienced. Why, I am unsure and all I know is that he did one or two Convoy runs to Russia, a few Atlantic Convoy runs and was based at Scarborough.
Both my Grandfathers served during 1914-18 and fortunately both survived but my paternal Grandfather never spoke of his experiences to anybody. He was 97 when he died and from the end of the War until he died, he suffered from nightmares on an almost nightly basis and would regularly wake up bathed in sweat. Then 3 weeks before he died and for each meal, he insisted on setting two extra places (including wine glasses) at the dinner table and then proceeded to talk with his two friends that unfortunatley did not survive. In this 3 week period, not one nightmare??????
To some extent and while I do not use them, I imagine that computer sims can offer an insight into the 'experience' but what none of these programmes will do, is kill the 'player' like a 'live' enemy will do or what it will feel like to witness the loss of a best friend killed, so while it is possible to 'fly' a P-51, B-17, Bf109, or to take part in a land battle, it can never be a real simulation.
So, which viewpoint is right?
My personal point of view is both are right, because if someone is happy to sit down and talk to me about their experiences, I am happy to listen and learn but equally, if someone has trouble come to terms with their experiences, who am I to insist on making that person relive the horrors they experienced?
However what should be remembered is that as time moves on and survivers of all conflict dwindle, then what was learnt and experienced, WILL be fogotten and WILL be re-learnt the hard way.
Tony
PS
I am the first member of my family who has not served in the forces. This was not my choice but a direction that I was prevented from taking by my parents. As such, if anything that I have written, has been taken the wrong way, then I apologise now as this is really not intended, as I do appreciate what is done on my behalf even though I will never understand what has been or is being experienced.
Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:15 pm
Tony, You are corect that some hear my wish to know how we would react, I am one, but more to the point I have friends in Iraq and have seen what having a father flying in Iraq in 1991 did to my friends family. My dreams of this project would be to help educate and remember the lost. To be able to let them feel and touch what we have lost. Also a place for families and relatives to come and remember. I also have friends who will not talk about the combat that they were in and I know it is for them the only way to try and deel with it. But when I sat and talked with a friend about his it was great.
The Computer sims or VR would also be a way to help keep coasts down in maintaining this colection.
The Computer sims or VR would also be a way to help keep coasts down in maintaining this colection.
Sat Oct 02, 2004 11:24 am
pearl harbor in a P-40, or defending the USA in a F-5E.
Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:38 pm
Why would you want to be flying in a P-40 over Pearl? What ever got up a few p-36s were crushed. The stuff in Speilber's Film was not the case.
Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:22 pm
Regarding Bernie Fisher - There is a photo of him signing his book at our little air show in Wendover recently - www.wendoverairbase.com - then click on the 2004 airshow photo/link then at the bottom of the page click on the 2004 air show bar - his photo is center column one up form the bottom. He is the most genuine person you'll ever meet. He matter of factly explained to me, as in the book, that he never thought about what might happen other than he had to get a fellow pilot out of trouble.
In the book, he relates that about 1 week after the mission a general called the entire flight group in for a debriefing that concluded with, "Bernie what is this worth?" He was embarrassed and asked for clarification - "you've been in charge of other pilots - what would you recommend for a pilot that did what you did?" He replied - "Well Sir I suppose the Silver Star" The general grinned and said, " I recommended you for the MOH a few days ago."
A true gentleman and a privilge to meet him
Tom P
Historic Wendover Airfield
In the book, he relates that about 1 week after the mission a general called the entire flight group in for a debriefing that concluded with, "Bernie what is this worth?" He was embarrassed and asked for clarification - "you've been in charge of other pilots - what would you recommend for a pilot that did what you did?" He replied - "Well Sir I suppose the Silver Star" The general grinned and said, " I recommended you for the MOH a few days ago."
A true gentleman and a privilge to meet him
Tom P
Historic Wendover Airfield
Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:17 pm
From my experience, the simulators don't do justice to the real thing. The whole "fear" aspect is missing. I only fly combat missions because I have to. Given a choice, I'd be quite happy hauling cargo between California and Hawaii.
I may just bounce around in lowly transport planes, but I have been involved with a couple of wars. Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti(yes I know we turned around) Afghanistan and Iraq. As well as many "incidents" south of the border. We don't get to bomb and strafe stuff, but we still do alot of cool things.
When I was a kid I thought it would be great to fly in combat and have a job that required wearing a flight suit, helmet, parachute and such. And I was right! After all these years, I'm still doing it. It was a blast until the first time I had chunks of metal fly through the floor of the Mighty Hercules! Suddenly, I realized that it wasn't a game. People were trying to kill my mamma's little boy.
When I moved over the the C-17, I figured that I'd never fly into a hot zone again. Big planes don't do that sort of stuff. Then Afghanistan started up, followed shortly by Iraq.
When you see what looks like flaming tennis balls (AAA) come towards your airplane, you automatically do the old butt clench. When you see a SAM or RPG come towards you, you clench even tighter, remind yourself that as a kid, you dreamed of being in combat and thought it would be cool. When you see another airplane or helicopter take a hit, you are secretly glad that it was them and not you. When you see a near miss, you are glad that it wasn't any of you! When you bug out of an airfield that is being attacked, you secretly wish you could take those "poor Army guys and Marines" that guard the base with you. When you drop those "poor Army guys and Marines" off at a field and you know they will soon face the enemy, you pray that they are all alive when you come back to get them later. All too often, they're not.
Then, because you have a cargo plane, you get the job of carrying the wounded and glorious dead back home. That's when it finally sinks in. It's not a game at all and not nearly as cool as you thought it would be.
I may just bounce around in lowly transport planes, but I have been involved with a couple of wars. Bosnia, Somalia, Haiti(yes I know we turned around) Afghanistan and Iraq. As well as many "incidents" south of the border. We don't get to bomb and strafe stuff, but we still do alot of cool things.
When I was a kid I thought it would be great to fly in combat and have a job that required wearing a flight suit, helmet, parachute and such. And I was right! After all these years, I'm still doing it. It was a blast until the first time I had chunks of metal fly through the floor of the Mighty Hercules! Suddenly, I realized that it wasn't a game. People were trying to kill my mamma's little boy.
When I moved over the the C-17, I figured that I'd never fly into a hot zone again. Big planes don't do that sort of stuff. Then Afghanistan started up, followed shortly by Iraq.
When you see what looks like flaming tennis balls (AAA) come towards your airplane, you automatically do the old butt clench. When you see a SAM or RPG come towards you, you clench even tighter, remind yourself that as a kid, you dreamed of being in combat and thought it would be cool. When you see another airplane or helicopter take a hit, you are secretly glad that it was them and not you. When you see a near miss, you are glad that it wasn't any of you! When you bug out of an airfield that is being attacked, you secretly wish you could take those "poor Army guys and Marines" that guard the base with you. When you drop those "poor Army guys and Marines" off at a field and you know they will soon face the enemy, you pray that they are all alive when you come back to get them later. All too often, they're not.
Then, because you have a cargo plane, you get the job of carrying the wounded and glorious dead back home. That's when it finally sinks in. It's not a game at all and not nearly as cool as you thought it would be.
Tue Oct 05, 2004 12:00 am
Hey Brad, good to hear from you again old friend. Just wanted to say Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!! along with ALL of the other men and women who are serving, and have served. It takes a lot to do what you do for us. I just wanted to say that there is not a day that goes by that I don't think of the services that you and many others do everyday. It truely takes real grit and I solute you Mr. Pilgrim. You are in my prayers and my thoughts. God Speed my friend and Fly Safe!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!
Dave D.
Dave D.
Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:17 pm
Brad, a C-17 can and You have flown into Hot LZx. Thanks for writting and for laying. If cargo planes were not flying what could a combat soldier be?
But I would say that there is no glory in being wounded or dead. That Glory is created by the press or movies. What the men and woman, some of whom are friends, do is a job that must be honored and thanked. Glory is resurved for History, now we just hope our sons and daughters are safe and come back to us. For those who do not, I say thank you and pray for the family.
But I would say that there is no glory in being wounded or dead. That Glory is created by the press or movies. What the men and woman, some of whom are friends, do is a job that must be honored and thanked. Glory is resurved for History, now we just hope our sons and daughters are safe and come back to us. For those who do not, I say thank you and pray for the family.
If you could.......
Wed Oct 20, 2004 3:57 pm
I'd be with my cousin Capt. Don Owen in VMF-112 flying Corsairs off the USS Bennington over Japan. Maybe I could have saved him?
Wed Oct 20, 2004 7:02 pm
For me a little forward air control in;
1. L-19/ O-1
2. O-2
3. OV-10
4. T-28
1. L-19/ O-1
2. O-2
3. OV-10
4. T-28